Men and Women

[matsunosuperfan]

Men and Women

Men and women differ. We desire
differently: one wishes for the moon
to take them back, the other aims and fires
at the unexplained, mistakes a loon’s
elastic crooning in the dark for sirens
chasing death across a dotted line
and barrels naked, dazed and dripping, shining
through the sheets into a field of columbine
and dreams. Men I don’t pretend to know—
their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb
and razor burn, the alcoholic’s sting—
women understand a bird. I think
I’d like to be one for a life or two
and drink the night alone, alone, alone.

[wasellajam]

Hi, mat, contrary to the clear title I find myself in a constant state of gender confusion. Some notes:

Men and Women

Men and women differ. We desire I don't think we need this opener, even if you change the title at some point. Differences are rightfully assumed. Men desire... women crave... for clarity's sake instead of one and the other.
differently: one wishes for the moon
to take them back, the other aims and fires
at the unexplained, mistakes a loon’s
elastic crooning in the dark for sirens
chasing death across a dotted line
and barrels naked, dazed and dripping, shining
through the sheets into a field of columbine
and dreams. Has this sentence finally ended? All this for the other when the one got 8 words. I'm okay through "chasing death", the loon lines are lovely, but after that I'm alll wah-wah, even when I try.
Men I don’t pretend to know—
their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb
and razor burn, the alcoholic’s sting—
This vivid description is effective but thrown off by the N's claim not to know.
women understand a bird. Huh? I need more explanation. I think
I’d like to be one for a life or two
and drink the night alone, alone, alone.
Which one? One "alone" would be fine for me.

So, I hope you can use this to figure out where my inability to absorb this poem comes from. There are some beautiful bits worth working on. Good luck with it.

[busker]

Men and Women

Men and women differ. We desire
differently: one wishes for the moon
to take them back, the other aims and fires
at the unexplained, mistakes a loon’s
elastic crooning in the dark for sirens
chasing death across a dotted line
and barrels naked, dazed and dripping, shining
through the sheets into a field of columbine
and dreams. Men I don’t pretend to know—
their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb
and razor burn, the alcoholic’s sting—
women understand a bird. I think
I’d like to be one for a life or two
and drink the night alone, alone, alone.

The ending comes out of nowhere and knocks you over. It’s breathtaking.

It needs the three alones. That’s the song.

The section above these lines is nice, but not outstanding

Why? I’ll provide some more feedback time permitting but really, the last bit is the poem

[matsunosuperfan]

Men and Women

Men and women differ. We desire
differently: one wishes for the moon
to take them back, the other aims and fires
at the unexplained, mistakes a loon’s
elastic crooning in the dark for sirens
chasing death across a dotted line
and barrels naked, dazed and dripping, shining
through the sheets into a field of columbine
and dreams. Men I don’t pretend to know—
their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb
and razor burn, the alcoholic’s sting—
women understand a bird. I think
I’d like to be one for a life or two
and drink the night alone, alone, alone.

The ending comes out of nowhere and knocks you over. It’s breathtaking.

It needs the three alones. That’s the song.

The section above these lines is nice, but not outstanding

Why? I’ll provide some more feedback time permitting but really, the last bit is the poem

Thank you both! The top half of this one is indeed pretty muddled, I think. Didn't really start cooking until the end. What to do about it? Time will tell, or at least, a girl can dream...

[RiverNotch]

Men and Women


Men and women differ. We desire
differently: one wishes for the moon "Men and women differ. We desire / differently" is terribly redundant.
to take them back, the other aims and fires
at the unexplained, mistakes a loon’s
elastic crooning in the dark for sirens
chasing death across a dotted line
and barrels naked, dazed and dripping, shining
through the sheets into a field of columbine
and dreams. Men I don’t pretend to know— Which verb or set of verbs refers to men, and which to women? Do women wish for the moon to take them back, or do men? Moreover, is there much of a meaningful difference between each type? "shining / through the sheets into a field of columbine / and dreams" is about as romantic as wishing for a luminary to reclaim the self.
their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb
and razor burn, the alcoholic’s sting— There's a hint of the interesting in "their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb and razor burn"---it kinda reminds me of Louise Gluck's "Mock Orange"---but "the alcoholic's sting", by overplaying the hand, diffuses that interest immediately.
women understand a bird. I think
I’d like to be one for a life or two
and drink the night alone, alone, alone. The last sentence is fine sounding, but it's like the whole host of fragments I have lying in my phone, never likely to see the light of day: they sound fine, their imagery could be vivid enough, but because they don't have a fit context, because they don't have anything to actually say, it would be the height of vanity for me to ever share them, not unless I pin them to the proper canvas. And this isn't, by far, that canvas. Nothing in the beforehand builds to the conclusion, nothing even hints at an anticipation ("drink" I don't count, because "alcoholic's sting" was just so bathetic), and whatever else the beforehand seems to say, it says too poorly by being too muddy, or else it's too vulgar to be worth saying: either men and women don't fundamentally differ at all, or else their differences are sinuous enough to be worth much much more than so blunt an opening.

The kind of writing here, or what's good in it, is like candy: empty calories. Trying to make it seem like anything more is having an entire dinner made of candy, something in which only children can indulge. Make this far less 'big-statement'---remove or rework every line, including the title, other than that last sentence---and this should turn good.

[matsunosuperfan]

Men and Women


Men and women differ. We desire
differently: one wishes for the moon "Men and women differ. We desire / differently" is terribly redundant.
to take them back, the other aims and fires
at the unexplained, mistakes a loon’s
elastic crooning in the dark for sirens
chasing death across a dotted line
and barrels naked, dazed and dripping, shining
through the sheets into a field of columbine
and dreams. Men I don’t pretend to know— Which verb or set of verbs refers to men, and which to women? Do women wish for the moon to take them back, or do men? Moreover, is there much of a meaningful difference between each type? "shining / through the sheets into a field of columbine / and dreams" is about as romantic as wishing for a luminary to reclaim the self.
their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb
and razor burn, the alcoholic’s sting— There's a hint of the interesting in "their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb and razor burn"---it kinda reminds me of Louise Gluck's "Mock Orange"---but "the alcoholic's sting", by overplaying the hand, diffuses that interest immediately.
women understand a bird. I think
I’d like to be one for a life or two
and drink the night alone, alone, alone. The last sentence is fine sounding, but it's like the whole host of fragments I have lying in my phone, never likely to see the light of day: they sound fine, their imagery could be vivid enough, but because they don't have a fit context, because they don't have anything to actually say, it would be the height of vanity for me to ever share them, not unless I pin them to the proper canvas. And this isn't, by far, that canvas. Nothing in the beforehand builds to the conclusion, nothing even hints at an anticipation ("drink" I don't count, because "alcoholic's sting" was just so bathetic), and whatever else the beforehand seems to say, it says too poorly by being too muddy, or else it's too vulgar to be worth saying: either men and women don't fundamentally differ at all, or else their differences are sinuous enough to be worth much much more than so blunt an opening.

The kind of writing here, or what's good in it, is like candy: empty calories. Trying to make it seem like anything more is having an entire dinner made of candy, something in which only children can indulge. Make this far less 'big-statement'---remove or rework every line, including the title, other than that last sentence---and this should turn good.

Thanks so much for taking the time <3 these are fair crits! Other than the accusation that the first line is redundant; it's just repetition for emphasis. Not saying that was a good or productive decision, but redundant it ain't  or at worst, purposely redundant. 


I did mean to be a little bit of a Clever Boi with the "who gets which verbs" ambiguity. But I think it's mostly empty cleverness. "Empty calories" is a good charge to level against this poem in present form. The muddiness you refer to is meant to read as gender confusion/anxiety, but I agree that right now it mostly just comes across as vague gesturing from a pulpit that it's not clear the speaker deserves.

[wasellajam]

Men and Women


Men and women differ. We desire
differently: one wishes for the moon "Men and women differ. We desire / differently" is terribly redundant.
to take them back, the other aims and fires
at the unexplained, mistakes a loon’s
elastic crooning in the dark for sirens
chasing death across a dotted line
and barrels naked, dazed and dripping, shining
through the sheets into a field of columbine
and dreams. Men I don’t pretend to know— Which verb or set of verbs refers to men, and which to women? Do women wish for the moon to take them back, or do men? Moreover, is there much of a meaningful difference between each type? "shining / through the sheets into a field of columbine / and dreams" is about as romantic as wishing for a luminary to reclaim the self.
their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb
and razor burn, the alcoholic’s sting— There's a hint of the interesting in "their mouths that always somehow taste of honeycomb and razor burn"---it kinda reminds me of Louise Gluck's "Mock Orange"---but "the alcoholic's sting", by overplaying the hand, diffuses that interest immediately.
women understand a bird. I think
I’d like to be one for a life or two
and drink the night alone, alone, alone. The last sentence is fine sounding, but it's like the whole host of fragments I have lying in my phone, never likely to see the light of day: they sound fine, their imagery could be vivid enough, but because they don't have a fit context, because they don't have anything to actually say, it would be the height of vanity for me to ever share them, not unless I pin them to the proper canvas. And this isn't, by far, that canvas. Nothing in the beforehand builds to the conclusion, nothing even hints at an anticipation ("drink" I don't count, because "alcoholic's sting" was just so bathetic), and whatever else the beforehand seems to say, it says too poorly by being too muddy, or else it's too vulgar to be worth saying: either men and women don't fundamentally differ at all, or else their differences are sinuous enough to be worth much much more than so blunt an opening.

The kind of writing here, or what's good in it, is like candy: empty calories. Trying to make it seem like anything more is having an entire dinner made of candy, something in which only children can indulge. Make this far less 'big-statement'---remove or rework every line, including the title, other than that last sentence---and this should turn good.

Thanks so much for taking the time <3 these are fair crits! Other than the accusation that the first line is redundant; it's just repetition for emphasis. Not saying that was a good or productive decision, but redundant it ain't  or at worst, purposely redundant. 


I did mean to be a little bit of a Clever Boi with the "who gets which verbs" ambiguity. But I think it's mostly empty cleverness. "Empty calories" is a good charge to level against this poem in present form. The muddiness you refer to is meant to read as gender confusion/anxiety, but I agree that right now it mostly just comes across as vague gesturing from a pulpit that it's not clear the speaker deserves.

I did not get gender confusion at all. The N seems to feel they have it pretty much sorted, reinforced for me by the thought of switching in another life, experiencing something different. I can't find any changes in this poem that would help aim it where you want it to go but if you can tweak it to there I'd love to see how.

[matsunosuperfan]

Thanks so much for taking the time <3 these are fair crits! Other than the accusation that the first line is redundant; it's just repetition for emphasis. Not saying that was a good or productive decision, but redundant it ain't  or at worst, purposely redundant. 


I did mean to be a little bit of a Clever Boi with the "who gets which verbs" ambiguity. But I think it's mostly empty cleverness. "Empty calories" is a good charge to level against this poem in present form. The muddiness you refer to is meant to read as gender confusion/anxiety, but I agree that right now it mostly just comes across as vague gesturing from a pulpit that it's not clear the speaker deserves.

I did not get gender confusion at all. The N seems to feel they have it pretty much sorted, reinforced for me by the thought of switching in another life, experiencing something different. I can't find any changes in this poem that would help aim it where you want it to go but if you can tweak it to there I'd love to see how. 

Thanks for the encouragement m'dear Was, I believe I will give it the ol' college try again. Think my mistake here (which seems to be my favorite mistake lately) was to take for granted too much of the speaker's self-awareness when in reality the reader needs to have it explained or implied more directionally.

[wasellajam]

Thanks so much for taking the time <3 these are fair crits! Other than the accusation that the first line is redundant; it's just repetition for emphasis. Not saying that was a good or productive decision, but redundant it ain't  or at worst, purposely redundant. 


I did mean to be a little bit of a Clever Boi with the "who gets which verbs" ambiguity. But I think it's mostly empty cleverness. "Empty calories" is a good charge to level against this poem in present form. The muddiness you refer to is meant to read as gender confusion/anxiety, but I agree that right now it mostly just comes across as vague gesturing from a pulpit that it's not clear the speaker deserves.

I did not get gender confusion at all. The N seems to feel they have it pretty much sorted, reinforced for me by the thought of switching in another life, experiencing something different. I can't find any changes in this poem that would help aim it where you want it to go but if you can tweak it to there I'd love to see how. 

Thanks for the encouragement m'dear Was, I believe I will give it the ol' college try again. Think my mistake here (which seems to be my favorite mistake lately) was to take for granted too much of the speaker's self-awareness when in reality the reader needs to have it explained or implied more directionally.

Ha, I just read an old thread of mine, I was on a second edit with plenty of good crit when a new member posted: At first I thought (yes, what I meant) but rejected that because (a,b,c and d), listing all the ways I had mislead them. Very helpful lol. Not all readers can read the poem’s mind.

[milo]

Thanks so much for taking the time <3 these are fair crits! Other than the accusation that the first line is redundant; it's just repetition for emphasis. Not saying that was a good or productive decision, but redundant it ain't  or at worst, purposely redundant. 


I did mean to be a little bit of a Clever Boi with the "who gets which verbs" ambiguity. But I think it's mostly empty cleverness. "Empty calories" is a good charge to level against this poem in present form. The muddiness you refer to is meant to read as gender confusion/anxiety, but I agree that right now it mostly just comes across as vague gesturing from a pulpit that it's not clear the speaker deserves.

I did not get gender confusion at all. The N seems to feel they have it pretty much sorted, reinforced for me by the thought of switching in another life, experiencing something different. I can't find any changes in this poem that would help aim it where you want it to go but if you can tweak it to there I'd love to see how. 

I did experience some gender confusion throughout - I would be pressed to determine which qualities the N was assigning to which gender if I was quizzed on it as well - which gender the N their selves was.  That being said I don't think that was important - rather maybe that was to be the point - perhaps the whole is some metaphor about gender confusion?  Mcuh of it seems to point that way if you are looking.  The "We" if anything was the pronoun most bothersome

[matsunosuperfan]

I did experience some gender confusion throughout - I would be pressed to determine which qualities the N was assigning to which gender if I was quizzed on it as well - which gender the N their selves was.  That being said I don't think that was important - rather maybe that was to be the point - perhaps the whole is some metaphor about gender confusion?  Mcuh of it seems to point that way if you are looking.  The "We" if anything was the pronoun most bothersome

Confused speaker good, confused pome bad :/ thanks for the insights