Does "know" rhyme with "know"?

[rayheinrich]

If you hear me say "know" or "no" and then I say "know" or "no";
you would definitely hear a rhyme. Even a brain that felt compelled to
ask how the words were spelled would hear the rhyme to start with,
even if it changed its mind later. If "no" rhymes with "know" then
"know" certainly rhymes with "know".

All opinions, references, citations, and examples are welcome...


P.S. I moved this from 'Dreadnaught' thread.

[Wildcard]

Is sounding exactly the same rhyming? I don't think so. I think that's sounding the same

Rhyming has to be different consonant sounds doesn't it? That's what I think.

[Leanne]

No, rhyming doesn't have to be different consonant sounds -- the same words will obviously rhyme with each other. It's generally called a "repeated rhyme" or "identical rhyme" and is most often found in comedic poems, for ironic effect, or in country-western songs because the writers are being lazy

Generally speaking, it's frowned on by most poets as lacking imagination, but it's not against any rules and it's not the most egregious sin a writer can commit. And similarly, there's no reason why homonyms shouldn't have a place in rhyming poetry -- there should be no exclusions just because the other meaning of the word has already taken up one rhyme space. While "know" with that particular spelling obviously has only the one meaning, what about "bank" or "bow"? And then there is the case of deliberate repetition -- if we assume that "know" doesn't rhyme with "know", then it would follow that "and miles to go before I sleep" doesn't rhyme with "and miles to go before I sleep".

[abu nuwas]

They do rhyme. I happen to like the deliberate use of repetition. For my money, it is simply a matter of judgment: to my ear, rhyming 'far' with 'afar' jars -- but it is a rhyme,for a'that. Then there are just trite rhymes:

Football has so many dangers!
Down the toilet, there go Rangers!

[Leanne]

Shh, I've just had a morning full of Celtic celebrations... premature probably, but he was rather satisfied nonetheless

I would also find "far/afar" a more unpleasant rhyme than "know/know" or any other repetition, but that's to do with meter more than the words themselves.

[billy]

rangers did go down the loo
ten points deducted for going into administration

anyway does it, doesn't it.
yes it does. but it needs intent (i think) if it slips past as an unmeant rep
then it's just a matter of a small edit to fix

[abu nuwas]

:Billy --I looked twice at your comment, convinced that it was a poem, rhyme and all, and I was missing it!

Leanne -- I don't see that mter would kick in. 'From far' would be a simple iamb. like 'afar'. But bearing in mind the great 'Can the definite article bear the stress' debate of long ago, perhaps such pernickety things are best left.....

[Leanne]

The difference is subtle, and does depend on what words are around about, but I hear "afar" as more of a spondee than an iamb. Still, it's all depending on how it's used in a line, I'd most likely just consider it uninteresting

[abu nuwas]

The difference is subtle, and does depend on what words are around about, but I hear "afar" as more of a spondee than an iamb. Still, it's all depending on how it's used in a line, I'd most likely just consider it uninteresting

Yep, and yep. Now I feel guilty, as I think someone did use that recently. Oh dear!

[Erthona]

I don't think repetition is a rhyme and neither does the dictionary. It is like saying the thing that is being reflected is a reflection. So this time I'm afraid I will have to disagree with Leanne. I do agree with her on one point, such "rhyming" should not be encouraged regardless of what you call it.

Dale

ps If someone has access to an unabridged OED I would be happy to see what it has to say on the subject.
----------------------------------------------

rhyme
[rahym]   Origin
rhyme
   [rahym] Show IPA noun, verb, rhymed, rhym·ing.
noun
1.
identity in sound of some part, especially the end, of words or lines of verse.
2.
a word agreeing with another in terminal sound: Find is a rhyme for mind and womankind.
3.
verse or poetry having correspondence in the terminal sounds of the lines.

[Veil of Trash]

Dale, I don't agree with your analogy but I can't fault how you feel on the subject.
It however has all the properties of a rhyme, I would call it a trivial rhyme (/math-hat) but I wouldn't want it to be discounted or ignored. The possibilities in rhyme can get very sadistic, very quickly, but I'd like to leave my windows open if I were experimenting. (for example: it seems trendy in POPEULAH music atm, or maybe I've just been listening to too much radio. )

I feel repitition in general is very difficult to work with and I haven't really managed to use it to an acceptable quality in any of my poems. So in this respect I don't like using it, but I have no valid reason to not use it.


EDIT: After further reading of the thread I feel my post is pointless. Ooops :X. And now I sulk...

[Wildcard]

I agree with Dale (for once :p) a rhyme and the same word are not the same concept. Like a synonym of a word shares the same meaning, a homonym shares the same sounds. A rhyme is not a homonym nor can it be because a rhyme is produced by altering the original sound.

Hate and
ate.

Rhyme because I dropped the 'H'

ate and
eight

do not rhyme- they are homonyms.

Of course, this is all just my way of looking at it. In the poem that this started in, my intent was not to pass off 'know' as a rhyme for 'know' the lines were:

His face hinted that he must know
and no one could knowingly know.

I just wanted to make it obvious that I was repeating the 'no' sound- like 'no no no'. In my estimation the end result was

[Leanne]

Dale, Mark, what you are both referring to is called perfect or true rhyme. This is not the only definition for rhyme, regardless of what it might say in a generic dictionary -- I don't refer to my Pocket Oxford for a complete breakdown of all the subtleties, complexities and connotations of any technical term. The word "insane", in common parlance and in dictionary definition, will have a much more complex meaning were I to consult a psychiatric journal. Similarly, the most common understanding of rhyme in contemporary Western culture is that of perfect rhyme, but it is not the only kind.

In French verse, identical rhymes are absolutely acceptable -- sometimes not simply that single stressed syllable word, but also rime riche (Edward gave an example of this, with far/afar) and holorime (the same phonetics throughout two entire lines, though not necessarily the same words, eg. "Wood, you kiss the sky/ Would you kiss this guy?"). In Irish verse the rules are way too complicated but you're only considered to have a proper rhyme if certain vowel sounds match up to certain other consonants... but they're Irish, and nobody pays any attention . Assonance, alliteration (head rhyme), slant rhyme, off-rhyme, cross rhyme, sight rhyme... the list goes on, but it does most certainly include identical rhyme, or repetition.

Incidentally, are you aware that many people do not consider two words to rhyme if one word contains the entirety of the other (eg. told/old, wall/all, swell/well)?

---

3.
verse or poetry having correspondence in the terminal sounds of the lines.

This definition refers to what is more properly called "end rhyme". It completely discounts chain rhyme, climbing rhyme, internal rhyme, cross rhyme... my point is that it's all very well for a layman to say "rhyme" and think that umbrella term is good enough, but when we're talking the technicalities of poetry, we must be more specific.

Is this marble cake a chocolate cake? No it isn't.

Is this marble cake a cake? Yes it is.

Is know/know a perfect rhyme? No it isn't.

Is know/know a rhyme? Yes it is.

[abu nuwas]

Dale, Mark, what you are both referring to is called perfect or true rhyme. This is not the only definition for rhyme, regardless of what it might say in a generic dictionary -- I don't refer to my Pocket Oxford for a complete breakdown of all the subtleties, complexities and connotations of any technical term. The word "insane", in common parlance and in dictionary definition, will have a much more complex meaning were I to consult a psychiatric journal. Similarly, the most common understanding of rhyme in contemporary Western culture is that of perfect rhyme, but it is not the only kind.

In French verse, identical rhymes are absolutely acceptable -- sometimes not simply that single stressed syllable word, but also rime riche (Edward gave an example of this, with far/afar) and holorime (the same phonetics throughout two entire lines, though not necessarily the same words, eg. "Wood, you kiss the sky/ Would you kiss this guy?"). In Irish verse the rules are way too complicated but you're only considered to have a proper rhyme if certain vowel sounds match up to certain other consonants... but they're Irish, and nobody pays any attention . Assonance, alliteration (head rhyme), slant rhyme, off-rhyme, cross rhyme, sight rhyme... the list goes on, but it does most certainly include identical rhyme, or repetition.

Incidentally, are you aware that many people do not consider two words to rhyme if one word contains the entirety of the other (eg. told/old, wall/all, swell/well)?

---

3.
verse or poetry having correspondence in the terminal sounds of the lines.

This definition refers to what is more properly called "end rhyme". It completely discounts chain rhyme, climbing rhyme, internal rhyme, cross rhyme... my point is that it's all very well for a layman to say "rhyme" and think that umbrella term is good enough, but when we're talking the technicalities of poetry, we must be more specific.

Is this marble cake a chocolate cake? No it isn't.

Is this marble cake a cake? Yes it is.

Is know/know a perfect rhyme? No it isn't.

Is know/know a rhyme? Yes it is.

I should not have thought that 'insane' was still used as a term of art in psychiatry, any more than the old categories of idiot, imbecile, natural fool, or 'not so found'. Or loony or fruit-cake.

I cannot see in what way alliteration is a rhyme; it's alliteration. To say otherwise, is like some enthusiast getting hold of a perfectly good vegetable, a tomato say, and pompously telling everyone who will listen that it is not a vegetable. Why? Because he has determined that it is a fruit.

Whilst agreeing with every word, jot and tittle, I cannot help but notice that the examples you give almost all include the word 'rhyme'. This suggests to me, that the essence of rhyme, is sounding the same-- and that the examples you give, are deviating from that essence.

Besides which, I am in bad humour this am, since I spent forever last night, setting out for you guys the rules of one of Arabic meters, to see if some bright spark could do an English version. And then I brushed my hand on some --------------*!?*--- key, and it was all wiped out. Even such titbits as the line (tent) being divided into two hemistichs, the breast,being the first, and the rump being the second. Time for lunch!

[rayheinrich]

First you say: "I cannot see in what way alliteration is a rhyme."
Then you say: "This suggests to me, that the essence of rhyme, is sounding the same."

Guess what: The essence of alliteration is sounding the same.

Not that I'm making any sort of argument here, as alliteration is universally defined as a
type of rhyme; I'm just pointing out a contradiction in your statements.

P.S. Unlike alliteration, tomatoes really are classified two different ways. When classified by
cultural usage, they are vegetables; and when classified botanically (like squash, eggplants etc.),
they are fruits because they stem (pun intended) from the flower of a plant and contain seeds.
It commonly works the other way as well: "But when the potato, that vital fruit of Ireland, failed..."