this is not a poem

[alonso ramoran]

Burn Norton? http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-22409.html
I don't even remember what that piece is about, but it has a similar sound xD

here's a different sort of attack on the argument: Heaven and Hell as conceived in the (typically western) imagination is not the same as Heaven and Hell as conceived by, say, more traditional Christian or perhaps even Jewish circles. Heaven and Hell are one and the same place, life in the presence of God, only for one who loves God such a life is heaven, and for one who doesn't such a life is hell.

I've been meaning to respond to this, but I found this pretty interesting. I don't really see it as an attack tbh, but an argument that helps the blindsides in my argument. "God" is a term that I think means so many different things to people. To me, "God" can mean our humanity as in our ability to feel, share and empathize with one another. The creation of the idea of "God" is something that I feel like can only come from a consciousness that has the ability to empathize. So, I think to truly worship God is to celebrate our humanity: our ability to share and whatnot. To celebrate this, then such a life is heaven and to not such a life is hell.

I forgot about the westernization of these religions and neglected that earlier in the thread. I have heard about how more traditional Christian and Jewish circles have more of a focus on the here and now though and I'd love to read more about it

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busker,

Something problematic in my argument I forgot to point out is this idea that the souls that are in Hell deserve it. If I extend this to my argument, with a concentration camp being Hell then you can probably see how that is problematic. So I don't know if this idea that unending torment in the name of retribution is viable in any case that isn't a fantasy, which I guess is really what any belief in any sort of afterlife is, to put it cynically.

If we're dealing with the concrete existence of these two things, Heaven and Hell, then it should be less about who deserves to exist in some heavenly or hellish state and more about how those states came to exist. So to us who are living, "how" is a more sacred question than "who"