mental illness?

[UnicornRainbowCake]

Defining 'mentally ill' as being in a state of which you could harm yourself is a bit difficult. Having Type 1 Diabetes, if my blood sugar goes low, I certainly am a danger to myself. I have a tendency to pick up knives and try to cut things up (been to A&E a few times). Does that make me mentally ill for that period? I am very likely (if unsupervised) to hurt myself.

In regards to what Billy said earlier:
'i can't comprehend how people can fall so hard or so deep they can't stand up afterwards.'

I've seen people who you could understand wouldn't be OK after their experiences. It's an unfortunate reality that if you grow up in an abusive family, you're more likely to fall into substance abuse, rape, and other such events. A mixture of these almost always leaves a mark on a person.

Anyway, I don't see a problem with the word disabled. While standing at the entrance to the busiest rollercoaster in Disneyworld, and having an immediate entry pass due to my medical equipment, my dad thanked me for being the defective, disabled child. We have a darker sense of humour. It's all in the intentions of the speaker, no? :-P

[rayheinrich]

I prefer mental illness to ____ disabled because an illness is sometimes
something that can be cured whereas 'disabled' has the ring of
permanent. I sometimes say I'm 'mentally defective' just to piss
certain people off. Though, when you think about it, it's a very apt
term. Its problem is in the history of its usage. One term I really
dislike is 'bipolar'. It's way too euphemistic. 'Manic-depressive' is
descriptive and much more honest. Of course, I shouldn't complain,
I've yet to be termed 'behaviorally exceptional'.

BTW: Some drugs work and some don't. Just because a drug is
over-prescribed for profit (or fad) doesn't mean it does or doesn't
work. Some day there will be accurate tests for mental illness that
can be directly linked to specific chemical malfunctions and hence
to specific drugs. But at the moment most mental illness is typed
by symptom, NOT by actual cause; and the only way to find a
useful drug, if it exists, is through experimentation. Most of the
time this requires patience, consistency, and money. These are
not things most mentally ill people possess. Sigh.



This 'plan' was fully implemented years ago. Though by now, a few
more categories have been added...

[Brownlie]

I prefer mental illness to ____ disabled because an illness is sometimes
something that can be cured whereas 'disabled' has the ring of
permanent. I sometimes say I'm 'mentally defective' just to piss
certain people off. Though, when you think about it, it's a very apt
term. Its problem is in the history of its usage. One term I really
dislike is 'bipolar'. It's way too euphemistic. 'Manic-depressive' is
descriptive and much more honest. Of course, I shouldn't complain,
I've yet to be termed 'behaviorally exceptional'.

BTW: Some drugs work and some don't. Just because a drug is
over-prescribed for profit (or fad) doesn't mean it does or doesn't
work. Some day there will be accurate tests for mental illness that
can be directly linked to specific chemical malfunctions and hence
to specific drugs. But at the moment most mental illness is typed
by symptom, NOT by actual cause; and the only way to find a
useful drug, if it exists, is through experimentation. Most of the
time this requires patience, consistency, and money. These are
not things most mentally ill people possess. Sigh.



This 'plan' was fully implemented years ago. Though by now, a few
more categories have been added...

Can we establish a definite causality for anything?

[rayheinrich]

Can we establish a definite causality for anything?

Well... according to quantum mechanics (and quite a few eastern religions)
you can't. Howsomeever:

There is a lesser form of causality in the sense that there's a definite
scientific method for identifying many types of diseases (e.g. bacterial ones)
and that there are specific methods (e. g. antibiotics) that can treat some of
them.

The rest is a copy of a previous rant of mine:

With mental illness there's a long history of using it as a catch-all diagnosis
for a disease until its actual cause is discovered. At that point it magically
ceases to be a mental illness. People with undiagnosed long term syphilis that
had infected the brain were frequently classified as mentally ill. When the
bacterial cause of it and eventually the antibiotic treatment for it became
known; the disease became syphilis, not mental illness. It was the same for
some types of epilepsy, allergies to certain foods (e.g. Celiac Disease and
many others causing depression), a poison (e.g. mercury causing emotional
instability; violent, irrational behavior; depression, and manic depression),
brain tumors causing most everything, and many others.

Remember that a diagnosis of depression is the diagnosis of a symptom; as it
has literally thousands of causes. The same is true for other mental illnesses
as well. So most of the ones that cause a stable chemical imbalance in the
brain will, at some time, be diagnosable.

Some causes of manic depression are diagnosable now (e.g. mercury poisoning).
A really amazing one is the allergy to certain fungi spores that causes a form
of mania. Since these fungi appear mainly in the spring and manic-depressives
frequently have stronger manic episodes in the spring, this allergy was/is
frequently diagnosed as manic-depression. BUT, when the cause was discovered,
it magically became the neural symptom of an allergy, NOT manic depression. ...

(The original continued ad nauseum, but this seems a good place to stop.)


Obligatory manic poem:

< regrettably, it is sometimes the business of yellow flowers to burn in summer >

sometimes this is what it means to be a yellow flower
born late
of a cool, wet spring
only to be found by summer

sometimes
to be a yellow flower
means
to burn in summer
desperately
dreaming of spring

when burning in summer
most yellow flowers
desperately
dream of spring
while others
driven mad
will claim to be the sun

- - -

[Brownlie]

Can we establish a definite causality for anything?

Well... according to quantum mechanics (and quite a few eastern religions)
you can't. Howsomeever:

There is a lesser form of causality in the sense that there's a definite
scientific method for identifying many types of diseases (e.g. bacterial ones)
and that there are specific methods (e. g. antibiotics) that can treat some of
them.

The rest is a copy of a previous rant of mine:

With mental illness there's a long history of using it as a catch-all diagnosis
for a disease until its actual cause is discovered. At that point it magically
ceases to be a mental illness. People with undiagnosed long term syphilis that
had infected the brain were frequently classified as mentally ill. When the
bacterial cause of it and eventually the antibiotic treatment for it became
known; the disease became syphilis, not mental illness. It was the same for
some types of epilepsy, allergies to certain foods (e.g. Celiac Disease and
many others causing depression), a poison (e.g. mercury causing emotional
instability; violent, irrational behavior; depression, and manic depression),
brain tumors causing most everything, and many others.

Remember that a diagnosis of depression is the diagnosis of a symptom; as it
has literally thousands of causes. The same is true for other mental illnesses
as well. So most of the ones that cause a stable chemical imbalance in the
brain will, at some time, be diagnosable.

Some causes of manic depression are diagnosable now (e.g. mercury poisoning).
A really amazing one is the allergy to certain fungi spores that causes a form
of mania. Since these fungi appear mainly in the spring and manic-depressives
frequently have stronger manic episodes in the spring, this allergy was/is
frequently diagnosed as manic-depression. BUT, when the cause was discovered,
it magically became the neural symptom of an allergy, NOT manic depression. ...

(The original continued ad nauseum, but this seems a good place to stop.)


Obligatory manic poem:

< regrettably, it is sometimes the business of yellow flowers to burn in summer >

sometimes this is what it means to be a yellow flower
born late
of a cool, wet spring
only to be found by summer

sometimes
to be a yellow flower
means
to burn in summer
desperately
dreaming of spring

when burning in summer
most yellow flowers
desperately
dream of spring
while others
driven mad
will claim to be the sun

- - -

I did not expect you to bust out the Quantum Mechanics, that is something a philosophy professor would say. Being a bum college student I will say that the time old question of what substance composes the universe still plagues us to this day. Mental implies that there is a substance that is not the same as material in extension. I believe explaining mental illness in more materialistic terms that refer to particular datum would be useful. I am reminded of Wittgenstein and his ideas about specifying language (Obviously my knowledge is limited here), I am also reminded of nietzsche (whom I still have to cut and paste to spell his name) and socially constructed truth. As far as your poem goes you seem to have a monomaniacal obsession with this yellow flower be careful it doesn't end well for Ahab.

[rayheinrich]

"socially constructed truth"

The very definition of Wikipedia.

As far as your poem goes you seem to have a monomaniacal obsession with this yellow flower be careful it doesn't end well for Ahab.

My monomaniacal obsession with yellow flowers ( I must have 20 or 30 poems that mention them)
comes directly from that wonderful poet, Pablo Neruda

__Ode to Some Yellow Flowers__ - Pablo Neruda (translated by Jodey Bateman)

Rolling its blues against another blue,
the sea, and against the sky
some yellow flowers.
October is on its way.
And although
the sea may well be important, with its unfolding
myths, its purpose and its risings,
when the gold of a single
yellow plant
explodes
in the sand
are bound
to the soil.
They flee the wide sea and its heavings.

We are dust and to dust return.
In the end we’re
neither air, nor fire, nor water,
just
dirt,
neither more nor less, just dirt,
and maybe
some yellow flowers.
...

[UnicornRainbowCake]

Mental illness is caused by being able to think freely, at it's basic. It's an eventuality that it will deteriorate - for organic life as we know it, old age has proved that (sorry billy ).

AI's haven't developed far enough yet to be able to think freely, and so don't experience mental illness. This all doesn't explain the exact causes of mental illness, but gives a fair insight into the way to combat it (with medication).

[billy]

I've seen people who you could understand wouldn't be OK after their experiences. It's an unfortunate reality that if you grow up in an abusive family, you're more likely to fall into substance abuse, rape, and other such events. A mixture of these almost always leaves a mark on a person.

the trouble with the net is we can't say what experiences those writing have had i was molested as a kid, beaten on a daily basis by different stepdads/uncles, in care for most of my preteens. i was a coke head, speedfreak, heavy drinker and while they left a mark they didn't leave me disabled because of all those things i feel i got to know myself better. i know for instance i have an addictive nature, i know none of the bad things were my fault. i realised most of this by the time i was 16 or so, the addictive knowledge came later

when i say damage themselves or others, i mean through violence etc. not drugs but sheer mental screw up violence. lashing out for no reason. dissecting house pets for fun...for me, that's some scary shit

i know a cartload of people who are screwed up because of their upbringing or experiences but i still can't see ho they let it get them down, my mind isn't geared up that way. i absolutely know they are like that for a reason but i just can't see it

---

my niece is disable, she has downs syndrome, (she can't be repaired and she can't function normally, she's broken but beautiful) she's not a lesser human being for being the way she. i think political correctness has a lot to say sorry for.

---

Mental illness is caused by being able to think freely, at it's basic. It's an eventuality that it will deteriorate - for organic life as we know it, old age has proved that (sorry billy ).

AI's haven't developed far enough yet to be able to think freely, and so don't experience mental illness. This all doesn't explain the exact causes of mental illness, but gives a fair insight into the way to combat it (with medication).

tell that to countless kids with downs syndrome, at a certain age all they think about is sex, simply because they don't have the capacity to think about the atom.
if im born without a hand or leg (without the aid of a drug or foreign substance) i'm disabled even with the aid of those things i'm disabled, the cause is irrelevant, i'm there with three and a half flippers. it's same if im born with part of my brain not functioning properly (a child born with an oxygen deficiency to the brain for example) one of the major differences is that they seldom make prosthetics for the oxygen starved brain. with prosthetics physical disability can be sorted out.

[Brownlie]

I've seen people who you could understand wouldn't be OK after their experiences. It's an unfortunate reality that if you grow up in an abusive family, you're more likely to fall into substance abuse, rape, and other such events. A mixture of these almost always leaves a mark on a person.

the trouble with the net is we can't say what experiences those writing have had i was molested as a kid, beaten on a daily basis by different stepdads/uncles, in care for most of my preteens. i was a coke head, speedfreak, heavy drinker and while they left a mark they didn't leave me disabled because of all those things i feel i got to know myself better. i know for instance i have an addictive nature, i know none of the bad things were my fault. i realised most of this by the time i was 16 or so, the addictive knowledge came later

when i say damage themselves or others, i mean through violence etc. not drugs but sheer mental screw up violence. lashing out for no reason. dissecting house pets for fun...for me, that's some scary shit

i know a cartload of people who are screwed up because of their upbringing or experiences but i still can't see ho they let it get them down, my mind isn't geared up that way. i absolutely know they are like that for a reason but i just can't see it

---

my niece is disable, she has downs syndrome, (she can't be repaired and she can't function normally, she's broken but beautiful) she's not a lesser human being for being the way she. i think political correctness has a lot to say sorry for.

I have a feeling you're a remarkably good man I was truly touched by your autobiographical information thanks for sharing. You might want to consider writing memoirs. Your post was humbling.

[Magpie]

I've been following this thread since it started and it has certainly thrown up a lot of fascinating points for discussion. I wanted to say something about the several references to the term "disabled" and how some people don't have a problem with it.
I worked as a care worker for a few years with people with "learning disabilities", at the time "disabilities" was deemed to be the politically correct terminology but afterwards it got changed to people with "learning difficulties" and it may have even changed since but I'm not sure. But either way these people are still somewhat marginalised by society because of labels that are made up by people who surely have not encountered such people in their lives.
In some ways after I started working with these people I looked upon myself before that point as having the learning disability because I learnt so much from them, and why had I never learnt these things before.
How refreshingly wonderful it is to be with people who tell the truth and don't try and deceive like the rest of us do. When people ask you "how are you today?" the majority of us give the polite answer and try not to offend. When I used to ask that question of the people that I was working with I would sometimes be told to "go to hell and fuck yourself" and I knew where things stood. It was ok because the days when I would get a positive response and a big hug; I knew that it was genuine and honest. I wish I could be like that.
My Dad had cerebral palsy and was always termed as severely disabled, yet I have a scrap book full of newspaper articles about him that his parents made as he was growing up. So many stories written about this amazing "disabled" boy who went on to achieve things way beyond the grasp of abled people. I never had newspaper articles written about me and neither have the vast majority of us probably because we are just ordinary.
Everyone I have ever met who were so called disabled have an abundance of other qualities which are rarely taken into account, qualities that make them more able than the rest of us. It seems that when people are labeled mentally ill they have a tendency to use it as an excuse or reason to justify certain behaviours, although saying this I don't mean the people who have a genuine chemical imbalance in the brain which exhibits itself as psychosis or clinical depression. But a very small percentage of people in mental health services have that chemical imbalance, the majority have psychological disorders.
So in getting back to original question of the label of mental illness I suppose in light of what I've said I would rather be called "disabled" but that's more due to the fact that most of my heroes in life are classed as "disabled" They should change the term to "alternatively abled in ways that most of us could never comprehend."

[heslopian]

This might be interesting to some:
[youtube]B2Ta0yFoNG8[/youtube]

[rowens]

Most people where I'm from have been molested, especially girls. Many of them have been raped at some point. And they use drugs to deal with problems, then their dealers rape them too.

I'm just reporting from the trenches of the dirty South. The ghetto white trash scene is big here; a combination between hillbilly trailer trash and rap music. Girls call themselves trash, refer to themselves as bitches and hos, and are fond of making videos of themselves dancing in their underwear like girls in rap videos and posting it online. And to be a man that delivers frequent bitch slaps and sleeps around is a sign of respectability. Girls drop out of school and have kids in their early to mid teens; and get married very young.

Most girls tell me I'm not like the other men they know. Which means they probably think I'm gay because I don't allow thirteen year old girls to give me blow jobs.

This might not have anything to do with mental illness. They claim they like the way they live.

[Rose Love]

Something that people rarely consider when contemplating these issues is the fact that each individual person is of a completely different make-up than another. One person, for example, who feels a lot, who is extremely sensitive and empathetic to others' feelings and can feel what they are feeling will spend a lot of time outside of herself feeling what other people feel and being affected by what they feel and adjusting her behavior to the feelings she feels in other people. Because she was made like that, she will surely suffer a lot for a trauma that might barely even register on the radar of someone who is insensitive or uncompassionate.

It is also said that no person is subject to more suffering than s/he can withstand. When I see people who are living in war zones, with bombs falling and carnage, seeing their parents or relatives beside them one minute, then suddenly blast into a scattering of flesh and blood all around, I know that if I had been born into something like that, it would have killed me right away. I could not have survived such horrors before my eyes. Just thinking about it is hard to bear.

[rowens]

But isn't it unhealthy to be moral and refrain from doing what everyone else is doing because you think you'll feel guilty? I try not to do shameful things, but when I do shameful things I feel guilty in ways that break my brain apart. While others do far worse things and are respected for them.

Intelligent self consciousness is a mental illness...because we're animals. To evolve morality is to suffer, because it's against our nature. And some have more intense drives than others. For everyone that suffers through empathy for others, there's someone that suffers worse when they can't hurt others or at least use others as means to an end. And you can empathize with those people too. The bad people. And despite what people say, the low down, coldhearted people are respected more in the moment, as they live and do the things they do. People will look at someone that's "good", in an abstract way, and say they're the good, pure ones. But normally it's the ones that betray and cheat and hurt others that are more interesting and that have happier lives. To be strong in body and mind and actions. The culture I belong to is fascinated with those people. To be tough and hardcore and viscious; people envy and admire those qualities in people.

[Rose Love]

Intelligent self consciousness is a mental illness...because we're animals. To evolve morality is to suffer, because it's against our nature.

I disagree. To live among the immoral is to suffer.

And some have more intense drives than others. For everyone that suffers through empathy for others, there's someone that suffers worse when they can't hurt others or at least use others as means to an end. And you can empathize with those people too. The bad people. And despite what people say, the low down, coldhearted people are respected more in the moment, as they live and do the things they do. People will look at someone that's "good", in an abstract way, and say they're the good, pure ones. But normally it's the ones that betray and cheat and hurt others that are more interesting and that have happier lives. To be strong in body and mind and actions. The culture I belong to is fascinated with those people. To be tough and hardcore and viscious; people envy and admire those qualities in people.

That is one of the things that is so depraved about this world. I certainly don't and never will envy such qualities. I think they are inhuman and barbaric.

Moreover, who cares what people think? When you have a conscience and a moral compass you live by, you don't give a rat's a§§ about any of that. You live by your morals and principles, and by your heart, which connects you to your morals by your empathy, and that's it. You don't sit and intellectualize about how you should behave to best position yourself in the world, as if you have no conscience or feeling for anyone else and as if you actually care about others' opinion of you so much that you will sell yourself just so that they will look upon you in a certain way. That is a really ingratiating and weak state of existence.

[rowens]

Well, I must live among the immoral. Because most of my neighbors' ideas of a good night is seeing how close they can come to acting out Grand Theft Auto in real life.

[milo]

"Old age realizes the dreams of youth: look at Dean Swift; in his youth he built an asylum for the insane, in his old age he was himself an inmate."
- Soren Kierkegaard

"The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they are okay, then it's you."
- Rita Mae Brown

[billy]

Most people where I'm from have been molested, especially girls. Many of them have been raped at some point. And they use drugs to deal with problems, then their dealers rape them too.

I'm just reporting from the trenches of the dirty South. The ghetto white trash scene is big here; a combination between hillbilly trailer trash and rap music. Girls call themselves trash, refer to themselves as bitches and hos, and are fond of making videos of themselves dancing in their underwear like girls in rap videos and posting it online. And to be a man that delivers frequent bitch slaps and sleeps around is a sign of respectability. Girls drop out of school and have kids in their early to mid teens; and get married very young.

Most girls tell me I'm not like the other men they know. Which means they probably think I'm gay because I don't allow thirteen year old girls to give me blow jobs.

This might not have anything to do with mental illness. They claim they like the way they live.

i think i'd agree with them, it's what they know, what they grew up with. it's not right but for them it seems to the the norm. we i lived there was always a lot of weekend violence indoors and outdoors. drugs are common place and so is sex. a few rare people aren't into these things, mainly from choice and a good or better upbringing. i enjoyed my life which was much the same as what i described. it's just the way it was. the only difference is the kid blow job thing. any adult caught messing with a kid would be sorry if they were caught, that doesn't mean it didn't happen,

---

Well, I must live among the immoral. Because most of my neighbors' ideas of a good night is seeing how close they can come to acting out Grand Theft Auto in real life.

i don't see being immoral as a mental illness, or even part of it. i stole as a young person but it was greed. i lacked morals i lacked social awareness but it was still my choice. some people have no choice,

[rowens]

I don't think being immoral is an illness either. I think it's closer to natural impulses. There are neurological problems; and there are problems people run into trying to deal with shit...that knock them loopy. I know mental problems are hard, and the social problems that go along with them. I feel like shit most of the time, and it often hinders me in things that are very important to me. I write about these things a lot; but that's what I do. It's hard for me to imagine things being otherwise.

---

Or more to the point: I can imagine things being otherwise, but I'm so used to the way I've felt my whole life that I don't want to be "cured".

Whenever I've used pain pills or herion or morphine, or anything that makes me numb, I feel worse than when I'm in the worst pain. I just feel sick.

Everyone doesn't feel this way; but I am motivated by suffering. It's just that sometimes it gets a bit too much, and during those times I feel that I would rather die than feel anything again.

But I don't die. And those horrible moments get worse and worse; but still, later, when I've made it through them, I feel glad I had those experiences.

[Bunx]

should bunx go on disability for paranoid shizo?

---

"Thinking too much, and trying to understand how things work, why things happen, and what's going on with people and other things in this world: that's unhealthy. But that's my morbid fascination with being alive."
thanks rowens. applying...