Nightwalking (title change, edit #3.2 (Todd)

[ellajam]

Just checking up this old thread.  I wonder if now, given some time and distance and reading the three iterations over again you feel the same way.

Have I done something evil to you lately? I know, made you read that rondeau.

I have a tendency to favor things I can relate to. As a child, I can remember watching the moonbeams dancing through my window, so overall the poem worked for me.  

"Sir owl's hoot and barn wren's trill
cross through the air, at last to find
a moonbeam's trail which flows downhill."

To me, that was the weakest --- but the last verse I especially liked, because I didn't expect it --

Thanks so much for ready Snarly, and for pointing out a weak point. I guess I'll be taking another look at this one.

I really enjoyed reading the comments and then seeing your edits. I love a good villanelle and someone who even tries to write like this anymore.

You've improved remarkably well in your two edits, but there is one line...JUST ONE, that sticks out:

"Bright orange starlight starts to spill,"

When you read this out loud you get, "starLIGHT", which automatically creates a pause. Nitpicky...yes, but you break the pattern of all the first lines of each stanza.

You could read it as, "BRIGHT orange starlight starts to spill", and that keeps the meter, but none of your other beginning stanza lines start with that emphasis. You keep a consistent emphasis on the third or fourth syllable.

I so appreciate the read and comment, Time Out. Although I came to the site with this one, the pen is a great place to work on forms, you'll find two excellent new villes by Tiger in the NaPM.

I still often have poor poet's wishful thinking with my meter.
I am saying: bright ORange STARlight STARTS to SPILL.
Could you scan the whole line for me so I can see how you end up where you are?

Then again, it's a pretty awful line, your attention to it makes me want to change it anyway

Well, thanks all, I'll give the thread a thorough read and see what happens.

Okay so this is how I read each beginning line:

A moonbeam's TRAIL which winds downHILL

Across the LAKE, in midnight's STILL,

Light focused TIGHT enough to FILL

Sir owl's HOOT and barn wren's TRILL

Bright orange starLIGHT starts to SPILL (if you read it this way, you'll hear the pause I'm talking about)

White swans' reFLECtive wing and BILL

Hope that helps?

Thank you so much, I had no idea. Two accents per line, so interesting. I'm going to try reading it that way but it got me thinking that we're both wrong on downHILL, but this site http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronu...h/downhill sounds like UK is downHILL and US is DOWNhill. Unfortunately, I'm US, so I'm screwed.   And it's a refrain, ugh.

Again, your time is much appreciated.

Hey, milo, do you think downhill is screwed?

[milo]

Have I done something evil to you lately? I know, made you read that rondeau.

Fair question.  I remember when you were working on it before, you edited and decided you didn't like it anymore so i never really bothered to read through it much.  i just happened to run across it recently and thought that the edited version was probably 1000x better than the first and quite a bit better than the second.  It also seemed it would be obvious to others so i wondered if time and space had changed your feeling toward them at all.

[ellajam]

Have I done something evil to you lately? I know, made you read that rondeau.

Fair question.  I remember when you were working on it before, you edited and decided you didn't like it anymore so i never really bothered to read through it much.  i just happened to run across it recently and thought that the edited version was probably 1000x better than the first and quite a bit better than the second.  It also seemed it would be obvious to others so i wondered if time and space had changed your feeling toward them at all.

Yes, I can appreciate that the edit is much more easy to read and understand, better. But at a minimum:

A moonbeam's trail which winds downhill I don't like "which".
is slipping through the wooden blind
to dance upon my windowsill.

Across the lake, in midnight's still, Ugh to midnight's still
a rippled, glittered path defined: No to rippled, glittered.
a moonbeam's trail which winds downhill.

Light focused tight enough to fill
the room, in matching streams aligned maybe better without the comma.
to dance upon my windowsill.

Sir owl's hoot and barn wren's trill
cross through the air, at last to find
a moonbeam's trail which flows downhill.

Bright orange starlight starts to spill, meh to bright orange.
careening down a spiraled rind,
to dance upon my windowsill.

White swans' reflective wing and bill
go gliding by to bring to mind Maybe dump the first "to".
a moonbeam's trail which winds downhill
to dance upon my windowsill.

 
Any opinions on whether or not downHILL is acceptable?

When I show any improvement the credit is to The Pen, thanks to all of you who take the time to push me along. I'm also a good example of how valuable it is to learn to critique other people's poems, bound to learn something in the process.

[milo]

 
Any opinions on whether or not downHILL is acceptable?

When I show any improvement the credit is to The Pen, thanks to all of you who take the time to push me along. I'm also a good example of how valuable it is to learn to critique other people's poems, bound to learn something in the process.

Downhill is a word that changes based on usage.  As an adjective it is a trochee - she was a great downhill skier.

As an adverb it is an iamb - things are really going downhill.

That being said, the plasticity on the accent is high enough that it would comfortably bow to predominant meter imo.

[ellajam]

 
Any opinions on whether or not downHILL is acceptable?

When I show any improvement the credit is to The Pen, thanks to all of you who take the time to push me along. I'm also a good example of how valuable it is to learn to critique other people's poems, bound to learn something in the process.

Downhill is a word that changes based on usage.  As an adjective it is a trochee - she was a great downhill skier.

As an adverb it is an iamb - things are really going downhill.

That being said, the plasticity on the accent is high enough that it would comfortably bow to predominant meter imo.

Thanks, unless there's a chorus of "oh, no you don't" I'll keep downhill and just see what I can do to get rid of which.

[milo]

 
Any opinions on whether or not downHILL is acceptable?

When I show any improvement the credit is to The Pen, thanks to all of you who take the time to push me along. I'm also a good example of how valuable it is to learn to critique other people's poems, bound to learn something in the process.

Downhill is a word that changes based on usage.  As an adjective it is a trochee - she was a great downhill skier.

As an adverb it is an iamb - things are really going downhill.

That being said, the plasticity on the accent is high enough that it would comfortably bow to predominant meter imo.

Thanks, unless there's a chorus of "oh, no you don't" I'll keep downhill and just see what I can do to get rid of which.

perhaps - "a moonbeam's trail unwinds downhill
and slips right through the wooden blind"

[ellajam]

Downhill is a word that changes based on usage.  As an adjective it is a trochee - she was a great downhill skier.

As an adverb it is an iamb - things are really going downhill.

That being said, the plasticity on the accent is high enough that it would comfortably bow to predominant meter imo.

Thanks, unless there's a chorus of "oh, no you don't" I'll keep downhill and just see what I can do to get rid of which.

perhaps - "a moonbeam's trail unwinds downhill
and slips right through the wooden blind"

Unwinds instead of winds is interesting, I'll have to try it and see I can carry it through. Thanks

[bena]

I know with some modern villanelles it's ok to change the words around...I kind of like unwind with "wooden blind' but that's just an ignorant person's viewpoint.

love ya
mel.

[billy]

yo asked if downhill works; i think it does. i think you could do a little more the that line as a refrain though i see you changed winds to flow in one line but wonder if you could make even more changes? [and sorry for the rather long bit of feedback]

A moonbeam's trail which winds downhill
a moonbeam's trail which flows downhill.
a moonbeam's trail which wends downhill
the moonbeam's trail, which flows downhill. [just suggestion for you to play with of course]
i think it bloody marvellous. i did read the original and first edit and this second one is much better, the thing with meter (for me at least) is that i need to use a few filler words like [which] so if their inclusion allows the poem to be better than to not have them i'm all for it. most of the points i made are niggly things to be used or left as you see fit. nice work, good edits.

edit#2 (it may not be fair to blame milo)


A moonbeam's trail which winds downhill
is slipping through the wooden blind
to dance upon my windowsill. feels a bit weak, and if it's supposed to then all's well, i pose the question 'could it be more lively?' [to party on my windowsill] which in some way shows the window is open and the blinds are moving with a breeze/wind/wet fart etc?

Across the lake, in midnight's still,
a rippled, glittered path defined:
a moonbeam's trail which winds downhill.

Light focused tight enough to fill  like the assonance of light and tight, normally i would question tight over sharp but it works well and is easily comprehended.
the room, in matching streams aligned this works really well with the blind line
to dance upon my windowsill.

Sir owl's hoot and barn wren's trill sir feels weak, a suggestion would be barn or something else
cross through the air, at last to find does noise cross or pass through air?
a moonbeam's trail which flows downhill.

Bright orange starlight starts to spill,
careening down a spiraled rind, should it be spiralled of is it one of those spell it with or without crossovers?
to dance upon my windowsill.

White swans' reflective wing and bill wings [they have two] though you could be seeing only one of them
go gliding by to bring to mind a suggestion would be to swap one of the [to's] you could say [they] instead of [to] in the first instance with a comma or semi colon after by.
a moonbeam's trail which winds downhill
to dance upon my windowsill.

[proteus24]

Marcella,

Ah tricky, I thought you had messed up until I realized you were using the secondary pronunciation of "winds".  

Actually, this is a clever approach to this form, creating a midnight's summer dream effect (bringing dreams to jolt and thrill) rather than trying for a specific message, or a story telling. So even though as any villanelle, it seems to sag under the weight of the repeating lines, it does not contain those fatal flaws. This is like an expressionist painting, in that it conveys an image that contains an emotional tone. It is the line "moonlight's trail 'cross waters still" that gives it this dreamlike feel, despite the fact that what is being portrayed is fairly mundane, such as "owl's hoot and barn wren's trill". The weak lines for me are

"seeking strength and finding will
new plans drawn from hearts and minds"

which seems a bit pedantic, and at odds with what has preceded it, and that which follows.      

Also,

"illuminate white wing and bill
swans' grace sails through life's groans and grinds"

starts out well, but " through life's groans and grinds", is not only back to the philosophizing, but is not supported by the rest of the poem, and seems very ad hoc.

I think staying with a kind of dream-like image painting would create a stronger poem, in fact probably one of the few approaches to make sense for this form, as only someone like Dylan Thomas seems to have the cleverness and skill (and luck) to use this form to make a philosophical statement (although thousands continue to try).

I do like the possibility of what you have so far.

Dale

Hi--

This is my first post--hooray! I agree with Dale about keeping the poem in a dream-like imagery, because it awakens the imagination of the reader, engaging her like an enthralling painting. I do think, though, the mundane aspects of the poem give it a universal human quality, which is a wonderful thing, because it makes it much more intimate and relatable.

As far as its meaning, I feel it is conveying the observer quality of being a person--a seemingly idle yet engaged onlooker with unique interpretations of the world churning rhythmically (like your poem's rhythm) outside the 'bedroom view.'

[ellajam]

I know with some modern villanelles it's ok to change the words around...I kind of like unwind with "wooden blind' but that's just an ignorant person's viewpoint.

love ya
mel.

yo asked if downhill works; i think it does. i think you could do a little more the that line as a refrain though i see you changed winds to flow in one line but wonder if you could make even more changes? [and sorry for the rather long bit of feedback]

A moonbeam's trail which winds downhill
a moonbeam's trail which flows downhill.
a moonbeam's trail which wends downhill
the moonbeam's trail, which flows downhill. [just suggestion for you to play with of course]
i think it bloody marvellous. i did read the original and first edit and this second one is much better, the thing with meter (for me at least) is that i need to use a few filler words like [which] so if their inclusion allows the poem to be better than to not have them i'm all for it. most of the points i made are niggly things to be used or left as you see fit. nice work, good edits.

edit#2 (it may not be fair to blame milo)


A moonbeam's trail which winds downhill
is slipping through the wooden blind
to dance upon my windowsill. feels a bit weak, and if it's supposed to then all's well, i pose the question 'could it be more lively?' [to party on my windowsill] which in some way shows the window is open and the blinds are moving with a breeze/wind/wet fart etc?

Across the lake, in midnight's still,
a rippled, glittered path defined:
a moonbeam's trail which winds downhill.

Light focused tight enough to fill  like the assonance of light and tight, normally i would question tight over sharp but it works well and is easily comprehended.
the room, in matching streams aligned this works really well with the blind line
to dance upon my windowsill.

Sir owl's hoot and barn wren's trill sir feels weak, a suggestion would be barn or something else
cross through the air, at last to find does noise cross or pass through air?
a moonbeam's trail which flows downhill.

Bright orange starlight starts to spill,
careening down a spiraled rind, should it be spiralled of is it one of those spell it with or without crossovers?
to dance upon my windowsill.

White swans' reflective wing and bill wings [they have two] though you could be seeing only one of them
go gliding by to bring to mind a suggestion would be to swap one of the [to's] you could say [they] instead of [to] in the first instance with a comma or semi colon after by.
a moonbeam's trail which winds downhill
to dance upon my windowsill.

Thanks bean and bill, I'm editing now so really appreciate having your comments to add to my own. I really had given this one up for dead, but coming back it still holds some interest for me. Villes are challenging but fun to edit, gets the brain going.

You're such a party animal, billy, "party on" gets rid of the not so good "upon" but it may be a little raucous for bedtime, too big an image. I'll think on it though, thanks for the idea. Those refrains are touchy things.

Hi--

This is my first post--hooray! I agree with Dale about keeping the poem in a dream-like imagery, because it awakens the imagination of the reader, engaging her like an enthralling painting. I do think, though, the mundane aspects of the poem give it a universal human quality, which is a wonderful thing, because it makes it much more intimate and relatable.

As far as its meaning, I feel it is conveying the observer quality of being a person--a seemingly idle yet engaged onlooker with unique interpretations of the world churning rhythmically (like your poem's rhythm) outside the 'bedroom view.'

Hi, Proteus, welcome to the pig pen. Hooray right back at ya.
Thank you for your point of view. The balance of mundane and imagination is often a challenge for me, I like a string on my balloon, your comment encourages me to aim for that on the new edit.

i can't resist a workshop tip for you: Try to address the poem directly instead of basing your comment on someone else's and let the OP weigh things out. In this case Dale's comment was addressing an earlier edit, I'm working on the top one now. Do you think I've lost some of what you like? If so, what?

Anyway, fine first post, thanks for reading and taking the time to comment. I hope you enjoy the site

[ellajam]

New edit, I think I may be on the right track now. Each one of you who have commented will find their ideas incorporated here, a collaborative effort. Thanks so much and I hope to take a bit more of your time to poke at it again.

[Todd]

Hey Ella, I haven't tried to critique one of these in forever. I do love the progression you've made. Let me give you some comments on the latest version.

edit#3 (all power to the PigPen)

A moonbeam's trail unwinds downhill
and threads its way through wooden blinds
to dance upon my windowsill.


I hope that I'm not being too picky here. I like the way this all sounds with its unwinds/threads/blinds word choices. Where I'm getting hung up is when I try to move with the image through the poem, and maybe I'm just totally off so be prepared to disregard this. I have a moonbeam coming from the moon. It leaves a trail. The trail behind the moonbeam unwinds as it moves downhill. This trail that has unwound now threads its way through window blinds, and there's enough interaction between light and shadow between the blinds that it appears to dance.  It seems odd to me that this is the trail of a moonbeam doing this and not the moonbeam itself. I'm probably just seeing it wrong.

Through channels of a moonshine still--I'm not sure of what a moonshine still is. I think of a still to make alcohol, but I don't think that's intended here.
a glittered path of gold designs
a moonbeam's trail unwound downhill;--I love that you used unwound and switched up the wording.
light focused tight enough to fill--Again, I think of words like unwound leading to diffused light not a tightening of it.
the room in matching streams aligns
to two-step on my windowsill.--This is great. Taking the idea of dancing and hitting it again at a slant. It's also probably more of what light may look like. There's an advantage I think to playing around with these specific choices like this.

Night owl's hoot and barn wren's trill
meet in the air, their song entwines
with moonbeam trails that wind downhill--I love the progression of these three lines.
as darkness bursts the stars until
they spill like spiraled orange rinds
and skip across my windowsill.--In fact from an imagery standpoint I love this entire stanza. The idea of darkness bursting the stars like overripe oranges with their rinds spiraling outward is  really nice.

White swan's reflective wings and bill
go gliding by, its path defines
a moonbeam's trail that winds downhill
to dance upon my windowsill.

I don't want to overdo it in Mild. I feel I'm close to doing that. Very much enjoyed the poem, Ella. I just had some issues visualizing some of it.

I hope this is more help than confusion.

Best,

Todd

[ellajam]

Hey Ella, I haven't tried to critique one of these in forever. I do love the progression you've made. Let me give you some comments on the latest version.

edit#3 (all power to the PigPen)

A moonbeam's trail unwinds downhill
and threads its way through wooden blinds
to dance upon my windowsill.


I hope that I'm not being too picky here. I like the way this all sounds with its unwinds/threads/blinds word choices. Where I'm getting hung up is when I try to move with the image through the poem, and maybe I'm just totally off so be prepared to disregard this. I have a moonbeam coming from the moon. It leaves a trail. The trail behind the moonbeam unwinds as it moves downhill. This trail that has unwound now threads its way through window blinds, and there's enough interaction between light and shadow between the blinds that it appears to dance.  It seems odd to me that this is the trail of a moonbeam doing this and not the moonbeam itself. I'm probably just seeing it wrong.

Through channels of a moonshine still--I'm not sure of what a moonshine still is. I think of a still to make alcohol, but I don't think that's intended here.
a glittered path of gold designs
a moonbeam's trail unwound downhill;--I love that you used unwound and switched up the wording.
light focused tight enough to fill--Again, I think of words like unwound leading to diffused light not a tightening of it.
the room in matching streams aligns
to two-step on my windowsill.--This is great. Taking the idea of dancing and hitting it again at a slant. It's also probably more of what light may look like. There's an advantage I think to playing around with these specific choices like this.

Night owl's hoot and barn wren's trill
meet in the air, their song entwines
with moonbeam trails that wind downhill--I love the progression of these three lines.
as darkness bursts the stars until
they spill like spiraled orange rinds
and skip across my windowsill.--In fact from an imagery standpoint I love this entire stanza. The idea of darkness bursting the stars like overripe oranges with their rinds spiraling outward is  really nice.

White swan's reflective wings and bill
go gliding by, its path defines
a moonbeam's trail that winds downhill
to dance upon my windowsill.

I don't want to overdo it in Mild. I feel I'm close to doing that. Very much enjoyed the poem, Ella. I just had some issues visualizing some of it.

I hope this is more help than confusion.

Best,

Todd

Todd, your comments are indeed a big help and although I like to post in Mild  so that members don't feel they need more than a point or two to post, no critique is to much or too picky. And this was one of my early posts here.

I especially appreciate your problem with "moonlight's trail". For me it is the path the moonlight makes across the lake, I know it and don't question it. If it's wrong I'm in big trouble but I've been in big trouble with this one before. I will re-examine every place the phrase appears to see if indeed it makes no sense. I often make a jump the reader can't and am glad to have it pointed out.

The moonshine still is new, it was a play on words that came from a comment milo made, yes alcohol still and the still of the night, I didn't see how I could make it work then but when it came out here I thought it might. Maybe not.

Thanks you for pointing out unwound vs tight, it's a conflict of this edit that I missed.

You stopped before the last four lines, if they suck it's fine to say so. I'm so glad that I posted this edit and that you took the time to comment, much to be learned here for me.

[Todd]

The last four lines had a nice sense of symmetry and closure. I had no issue with them. I just realized I was in Mild and thought, "You've said too much, stop." I could see how that could send the wrong message.

[ellajam]

The last four lines had a nice sense of symmetry and closure. I had no issue with them. I just realized I was in Mild and thought, "You've said too much, stop." I could see how that could send the wrong message.

Thanks, I'll leave them be for now.

[ellajam]

I've tried to address some of Todd's issues, I hope the new version is an improvement.

[Todd]

Hi Ella,

This version is improved. A couple comments below:

edit #3.1 (Todd)

A moonbeam's trail unwinds downhill
and threads its way through wooden blinds
to dance upon my windowsill.

Fermented through a moonshine still--This is much clearer as to purpose. Though I do have one issue with it. This is something Tom dealt with me on with one of my poems. I was misusing fermentation and distillation. In the case you describe, fermentation takes place BEFORE it gets to the still. You ferment to make what is known as a wash. This wash is then distilled. I could be wrong here, but I don't think I am. The still distills but does not ferment. I hate to be picky because its much clearer and it sounds good, but it could be one of those content issues that could throw off the line.
a glittered path of gold designs
a moonbeam's trail unwound downhill;
light focuses enough to fill--you eliminated the problem here.
the room, its broken stream aligns--I love the change with broken. It feels more right for what it describes.
to two-step on my windowsill.

Night owl's hoot and barn wren's trill
meet in the air, their song entwines
with moonbeam trails that wind downhill
as darkness bursts the stars until
they spill like spiraled orange rinds
and skip across my windowsill.

White swan's reflective wings and bill
go gliding by, its path defines
a moonbeam's trail that winds downhill
to dance upon my windowsill.

I think the revision is moving this in the right direction. I like the poem. I hope the comments are helpful.

Best,

Todd

[ellajam]

Hi Ella,

This version is improved. A couple comments below:

edit #3.1 (Todd)

A moonbeam's trail unwinds downhill
and threads its way through wooden blinds
to dance upon my windowsill.

Fermented through a moonshine still--This is much clearer as to purpose. Though I do have one issue with it. This is something Tom dealt with me on with one of my poems. I was misusing fermentation and distillation. In the case you describe, fermentation takes place BEFORE it gets to the still. You ferment to make what is known as a wash. This wash is then distilled. I could be wrong here, but I don't think I am. The still distills but does not ferment. I hate to be picky because its much clearer and it sounds good, but it could be one of those content issues that could throw off the line.
a glittered path of gold designs
a moonbeam's trail unwound downhill;
light focuses enough to fill--you eliminated the problem here.
the room, its broken stream aligns--I love the change with broken. It feels more right for what it describes.
to two-step on my windowsill.

Night owl's hoot and barn wren's trill
meet in the air, their song entwines
with moonbeam trails that wind downhill
as darkness bursts the stars until
they spill like spiraled orange rinds
and skip across my windowsill.

White swan's reflective wings and bill
go gliding by, its path defines
a moonbeam's trail that winds downhill
to dance upon my windowsill.

I think the revision is moving this in the right direction. I like the poem. I hope the comments are helpful.

Best,

Todd

Thanks for distillimg and fermenting, Todd.. A simple exchange would work meter-wise but the sonics stink. Maybe fermenting flow through moonshine still, or fermented flow through moonshine still, or something else. I'll think on it, thanks so much for coming back to this, much appreciated.

[Todd]

Maybe fermented wash