(03-18-2014, 04:53 AM)Erthona Wrote: "summer - season word for summer"
I would never have guessed, but if the Honshu fits......
Are you going to write a book called "Fukushima"?
Dale
Slightly off topic answer:
Yes. And even though Alain Resnais would have spun in his grave,
I was going to call it "Fukushima Mon Amour". But, unfortunately,
someone (actually five ones) beat me to it. So I'm a bit at sea
as to monikers. None of the ones I've come up with radiates the same
warm glow of "Fukushima Mon Amour". My current working title is "Hot Sushi - Fukushima Daiichi-ku or How I Learned to Stop Worrying
and Love Nuclear Power" which, needless to say, is one seriously
bloated elephant of a title. Still, having a title that long for a series
of poems that short does lend a bit of irony to the endeavor...
as if ANY book of poetry EVER needed more irony.
P.S. Any and all suggestions will be dutifully appreciated.
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
(03-20-2014, 03:46 AM)entwife Wrote: thank you ray
Slightly off topic answer:
I think I saw this in a post of yours somewhere else,
but I wanted to tell you that I almost never use uppercase
(and almost no punctuation marks) in my poems as well.
I do use them in comments and in limericks.
And no one should use them in haiku. It's a tradition
in English haiku that probably is done out of respect
for the first language that haiku was written in
as written Japanese doesn't use capitals (i.e. it has
no cases). It didn't have punctuation marks (well,
almost none) until the 19th century when they started
to be used in translations from English.)
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
(03-20-2014, 05:01 AM)rayheinrich Wrote: I think I saw this in a post of yours some where else,
but I wanted to tell you that I almost never use uppercase
(and almost no punctuation marks) in my poems as well.
yes I posted this when the disaster happened, in one of my other poetry forums (the one where you're only allowed to say nice things about other peoples stuff) people here seem really put off by the lack of capitals, oh well.
I don't want to distract from the discussion of the poem which is really what this thread should be about so if the discussion continues I will split it off to the discussion forum but, the reason people mention the capitals and punctuation isn't because they are bothered that you don't use them, (many writers here both use them or don't use them) but that you are omitting them without reason or good effect. punctuation and capitals are tools for writers and they should be either used or omitted with the intention of producing an effect. That is my opinion on the issue anyway and i have written using punctuation, non-standard punctuation, capitals and no capitals.
We now you return you to the discussion of the poem -
Not my favourite haiku. I didn't really get a sense of the image through the language. I felt the seasons ate up too much real estate in such a concise poem but that might just be me. Also, I would almost prefer it untitled than titled after the first line. I have seen the practice before, but frequently it is used where the other lines seen in light of the umbrella of a title gain additional meaning and I didn't get that here.
Mostly off-topic answers to milo's questions above:
(03-20-2014, 07:17 AM)milo Wrote: I don't want to distract from the discussion of the poem which is really what this thread should be about so if the discussion continues I will split it off to the discussion forum
I'm the person (or one of them) who loves free-ranging threads,
so either way is fine by me. Personally, I prefer a poem to be
the starting point of a discussion, not the focus. And yes, in
workshopping the poem IS the focus. So many paths...
(03-20-2014, 07:17 AM)milo Wrote: the reason people mention the capitals and punctuation isn't because they are bothered that you don't use them, (many writers here both use them or don't use them) but that you are omitting them without reason or good effect. punctuation and capitals are tools for writers and they should be either used or omitted with the intention of producing an effect. That is my opinion on the issue anyway and i have written using punctuation, non-standard punctuation, capitals and no capitals.
I'm in agreement with you. It's important, I think, to point
out that "punctuation" consists of much more than "punctuation
marks". White space (horizontal and vertical), rhythm, thematic
content, etc., etc. ,etc. are all part of it. Eliminating
punctuation marks (and caps for that matter) is not so much a
technical constraint, as it is an esthetic decision.
(03-20-2014, 07:17 AM)milo Wrote: Not my favourite haiku. I didn't really get a sense of the image through the language. I felt the seasons ate up too much real estate in such a concise poem but that might just be me.
Yes, it's not really a haiku. It's a fauxku or a haiku parody
or some such. It's immoral to format twelve or so syllables
into three lines and not label it "fauxku" even though
I'm pretty sure any further dilution of the term "haiku"
would not be scientifically detectable. (Still, that's no excuse.)
(03-20-2014, 07:17 AM)milo Wrote: Also, I would almost prefer it untitled than titled after the first line. I have seen the practice before, but frequently it is used where the other lines seen in light of the umbrella of a title gain additional meaning and I didn't get that here.
Using the first line as a label (not title) is, for me,
the lesser of many other evils. I chose this particular evil to
avoid the hell of having multiple poems on the web and on my
computer labelled "untitled" or worse yet " ". Which, by
the way, is why all my titles are bracketed with: < > . Doing
this makes it much easier to find titles and use them to
delineate poems when searching, sorting, extracting, etc.
This is especially true for ones on the web. (I used to take
them off for aesthetic reasons, but my laziness won out years ago.)
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
(03-22-2014, 03:42 PM)Leanne Wrote: Ray said summer is
the season word for summer
-- don't enjamb haiku
and don't punctuate
or use any metaphors
only frogs jumping
Taken from my comments above:
"Yes, it's not really a haiku. It's a fauxku or a haiku parody
or some such. It's immoral to format twelve or so syllables
into three lines and not label it "fauxku" even though
I'm pretty sure any further dilution of the term "haiku"
would not be scientifically detectable. (Still, that's no excuse.)"
("summer - season word for summer" is intended as a joke)
By the way, haikus do use metaphor. The proscription is that no
direct metaphor be written in the haiku. One obvious example
that appears in almost every haiku is the season word. An example
is "sunflower" which is a metaphor for "summer".
Here are two examples of haiku by Issa that contain metaphor:
(Another misunderstanding about haiku is that they deal only with
woman's/man's connection with nature. The proscription here is that
while they can deal with any subject matter, they must express
them with references to nature (not completely true, but close).
thorny wild roses
"Step over us here!"
as they bloom
Jean Cholley points out that this haiku carries both literal and symbolic meanings. It appears in Issa's travel diary, Kansei san nen kikô, along with an anecdote. While Issa made his trip home to his native village, he witnessed the guards of the Nakagawa Barrier Gate prevent two women from passing by boat. Literally, the thorny bushes in the haiku impede travelers; symbolically, they are the border guards, agents of the Edo government, who impede the travel of women across provinces. Cholley believes that Issa is speaking ironically when he praises "our magnificent regime" for its laws; En village de miséreux: Choix de poèmes de Kobayashi Issa (Paris: Gallimard, 1996) 233, note 4. http://haikuguy.com/issa/search.php?keyw...er+us+here&year=
the closer I get
to my village, the more pain...
wild roses
In a prescript to this haiku Issa reports that he entered his home village on the morning of Fifth Month, 19th day, 1810. First, he paid his respects at his father's gravesite, and then he met with the village headman. While the content of their meeting is not revealed, it plainly had to do with the matter of the poet's inheritance that his stepmother and half brother had withheld from him for years. He goes on to write, tersely, "After seeing the village elder, entered my house. As I expected they offered me not even a cup of tea so I left there soon." In another text dated that same year, he recopies this "wild roses" haiku and signs it, mamako issa: "Issa the Stepchild." See Issa zenshû (Nagano: Shinano Mainichi Shimbunsha, 1976-79) 3.61; 1.424. Shinji Ogawa assisted with the above translation. http://haikuguy.com/issa/search.php?keyw...+more+pain&year=
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
03-22-2014, 07:27 PM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2014, 07:29 PM by Leanne.)
I know. And I know that you know that I know. I've been told -- many, many times -- that I can't do any of the above. It's mostly why I hate writing haiku now.
Stop being perverse. Or at the very least, don't stop me from being perverse :p
03-23-2014, 06:33 PM (This post was last modified: 03-23-2014, 06:49 PM by billy.)
Quote:
(03-22-2014, 06:16 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:
(03-22-2014, 03:42 PM)Leanne Wrote: Ray said summer is
the season word for summer
-- don't enjamb haiku
and don't punctuate
or use any metaphors
only frogs jumping
Taken from my comments above:
"Yes, it's not really a haiku. It's a fauxku or a haiku parody
or some such. It's immoral to format twelve or so syllables
into three lines and not label it "fauxku" even though
I'm pretty sure any further dilution of the term "haiku"
would not be scientifically detectable. (Still, that's no excuse.)"
("summer - season word for summer" is intended as a joke)
By the way, haikus do use metaphor. The proscription is that no
direct metaphor be written in the haiku. One obvious example
that appears in almost every haiku is the season word. An example
is "sunflower" which is a metaphor for "summer".
Here are two examples of haiku by Issa that contain metaphor:
(Another misunderstanding about haiku is that they deal only with
woman's/man's connection with nature. The proscription here is that
while they can deal with any subject matter, they must be express
them with references to nature (not completely true, but close).
thorny wild roses
"Step over us here!"
as they bloom
Jean Cholley points out that this haiku carries both literal and symbolic meanings. It appears in Issa's travel diary, Kansei san nen kikô, along with an anecdote. While Issa made his trip home to his native village, he witnessed the guards of the Nakagawa Barrier Gate prevent two women from passing by boat. Literally, the thorny bushes in the haiku impede travelers; symbolically, they are the border guards, agents of the Edo government, who impede the travel of women across provinces. Cholley believes that Issa is speaking ironically when he praises "our magnificent regime" for its laws; En village de miséreux: Choix de poèmes de Kobayashi Issa (Paris: Gallimard, 1996) 233, note 4. http://haikuguy.com/issa/search.php?keyw...er+us+here&year=
the closer I get
to my village, the more pain...
wild roses
In a prescript to this haiku Issa reports that he entered his home village on the morning of Fifth Month, 19th day, 1810. First, he paid his respects at his father's gravesite, and then he met with the village headman. While the content of their meeting is not revealed, it plainly had to do with the matter of the poet's inheritance that his stepmother and half brother had withheld from him for years. He goes on to write, tersely, "After seeing the village elder, entered my house. As I expected they offered me not even a cup of tea so I left there soon." In another text dated that same year, he recopies this "wild roses" haiku and signs it, mamako issa: "Issa the Stepchild." See Issa zenshû (Nagano: Shinano Mainichi Shimbunsha, 1976-79) 3.61; 1.424. Shinji Ogawa assisted with the above translation. http://haikuguy.com/issa/search.php?keyw...+more+pain&year=
Good for you, of course you must be right, you quoted someone. Which. Means everyone else is wrong. I'm sure anyone can do the same sort of thing from sonnets to sestinas, I've seen it said by some poets that a sonnet can be as long or as short as the poet wants as well as a lot of other shite, I don't agree with them either. But that all good.
So far for the newbs who want to do a haiku (according to Ray):
Make it as long or as short as you want, make it about anything you want and use poetic devices when and as you want.
(03-23-2014, 06:33 PM)billy Wrote: Good for you, of course you must be right, you quoted someone. Which. Means everyone else is wrong. I'm sure anyone can do the same sort of thing from sonnets to sestinas, I've seen it said by some poets that a sonnet can be as long or as short as the poet wants as well as a lot of other shite, I don't agree with them either. But that all good.
So far for the newbs who want to do a haiku (according to Ray):
Make it as long or as short as you want, make it about anything you want and use poetic devices when and as you want.
Issa is one of the top three masters of haiku.
His haiku are wonderful ones to learn from.
I don't know where you get the idea that I'm some sort of
haiku libertine. On the spectrum of English haiku writers,
I'm very conservative. Read the Issa I put up, his haiku are
the ones I aspire to.
(03-22-2014, 07:27 PM)Leanne Wrote: I know. And I know that you know that I know. I've been told -- many, many times -- that I can't do any of the above. It's mostly why I hate writing haiku now.
Stop being perverse. Or at the very least, don't stop me from being perverse :p
Let us prey:
Give someone a banana and they'll slip on it, teach someone irony
and you'll never have to worry about bananas again.
I know that you know that I know that you haven't worried about bananas in 27 years.
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
(03-22-2014, 06:16 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: Taken from my comments above:
"Yes, it's not really a haiku. It's a fauxku or a haiku parody
or some such. It's immoral to format twelve or so syllables
into three lines and not label it "fauxku" even though
I'm pretty sure any further dilution of the term "haiku"
would not be scientifically detectable. (Still, that's no excuse.)"
("summer - season word for summer" is intended as a joke)
By the way, haikus do use metaphor. The proscription is that no
direct metaphor be written in the haiku. One obvious example
that appears in almost every haiku is the season word. An example
is "sunflower" which is a metaphor for "summer".
Here are two examples of haiku by Issa that contain metaphor:
(Another misunderstanding about haiku is that they deal only with
woman's/man's connection with nature. The proscription here is that
while they can deal with any subject matter, they must be express
them with references to nature (not completely true, but close).
thorny wild roses
"Step over us here!"
as they bloom
Jean Cholley points out that this haiku carries both literal and symbolic meanings. It appears in Issa's travel diary, Kansei san nen kikô, along with an anecdote. While Issa made his trip home to his native village, he witnessed the guards of the Nakagawa Barrier Gate prevent two women from passing by boat. Literally, the thorny bushes in the haiku impede travelers; symbolically, they are the border guards, agents of the Edo government, who impede the travel of women across provinces. Cholley believes that Issa is speaking ironically when he praises "our magnificent regime" for its laws; En village de miséreux: Choix de poèmes de Kobayashi Issa (Paris: Gallimard, 1996) 233, note 4. http://haikuguy.com/issa/search.php?keyw...er+us+here&year=
the closer I get
to my village, the more pain...
wild roses
In a prescript to this haiku Issa reports that he entered his home village on the morning of Fifth Month, 19th day, 1810. First, he paid his respects at his father's gravesite, and then he met with the village headman. While the content of their meeting is not revealed, it plainly had to do with the matter of the poet's inheritance that his stepmother and half brother had withheld from him for years. He goes on to write, tersely, "After seeing the village elder, entered my house. As I expected they offered me not even a cup of tea so I left there soon." In another text dated that same year, he recopies this "wild roses" haiku and signs it, mamako issa: "Issa the Stepchild." See Issa zenshû (Nagano: Shinano Mainichi Shimbunsha, 1976-79) 3.61; 1.424. Shinji Ogawa assisted with the above translation. http://haikuguy.com/issa/search.php?keyw...+more+pain&year=
Good for you, of course you must be right, you quoted someone. Which. Means everyone else is wrong. I'm sure anyone can do the same sort of thing from sonnets to sestinas, I've seen it said by some poets that a sonnet can be as long or as short as the poet wants as well as a lot of other shite, I don't agree with them either. But that all good.
So far for the newbs who want to do a haiku (according to Ray):
Make it as long or as short as you want, make it about anything you want and use poetic devices when and as you want.
There is no poetry without metaphor. Ever. Just pretty words.
03-24-2014, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 03-24-2014, 04:49 PM by billy.)
I was on about your mentor from happy haiku,
As for the metaphor, they're also out and out image, specially the latter one, a metaphor is what you make it, of course if you're in the know as to what Issa meant then well done you. if he meant it hurts to stand on a rose then it is indeed a metaphor for WTF :hysterical :
I think I saw this in a post of yours somewhere else,