Bill....I am not going to argue the fact that both exsist and will be available and in fact are at presant. I will how ever fiercely attack the idea that either will be made cheap and that costs will be recovered. That is just not ever going to happen, it can not possibly! It is entirly the opposite of the way the system works. They will never take our hard earned money(labour) and give it back to us. The system only works if we always owe (perpetual debt). Who is paying for the and has paid for the research? Who will continue to pay? 5 dollar fill up at the electrical pump, come on man you are cought in a serious assult on reality. Look i know you must really beleive this is the truth and the way and thats fine man, for you, but my mind is not clouded from the effects of the accepted norm. I see things for what they are, someone else's projection of reality. Fortunatly there are more and more of us every second. 
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if we charge the car from the house socket they can only charge us what we pay for electricity now. with a booster charger batteries can be charged in a few minutes. to last the car a day or 200kil or whatever. they can do it. and the cost of the supercharge. a lot less than cabon based fuels.
(01-15-2010, 06:26 AM)billy Wrote: if we charge the car from the house socket they can only charge us what we pay for electricity now. with a booster charger batteries can be charged in a few minutes. to last the car a day or 200kil or whatever. they can do it. and the cost of the supercharge. a lot less than cabon based fuels.
What are you refering to ? A quick charge battery charger? If so then I hope you know that they do not produce power from thin air. Everything they put in they take out and more. Power is not cheaper here. In fact burning oil is in fact cheaper than useing electricity in some cases. This changes about every 15 years or so.
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i know but if you can charge a battery in a few minutes, which qwe can already. you use a few mins of electricty. it doesn't cost 40 $ to charge a battery for 200 kil. no where near. lucky if its a couple of dollars.
@ presant gas here is $1.02 per litre. @ 10 kilometers to the litre thats 20 litres per 200 kilometers which is $20.40 or so. So lets argue that the electric car costs 12 bucks to charge enough to make the same trip. No lets say 10 bucks, thats half the cost, ok? The electric car has a cost in Canada of $35,000.00 base price and I know thats low. I can buy a used car for $1000.00 every year for 35 years. @ todays prices I will have paid twice the amout for fuel. Expecting an electric car to last 10 years with out costly repairs is a stretch but i'll go there. You will have still paid out atleast $140,000.00 for that transportation.
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so it's ten dollars for 200k
lots of people do 200k a day. (i mean a whole lot of people) especially public transport)
so that a saving of 10$ a day 3600 a year for them when yoiu factor in the buses etc do a lot less milage the saving becomes much greater, if you have a gas guzzler the savings again will be much greater. and that if you pay ten dollars for the charge, a booster recharging a battery for an hour or two is arguably under a dollar, the technology is there.
No matter the amout of travel, When comparing the two, you compare the same rates of so @ the stated prices the cost remains a constant double. The price per kilowatt hour does not change on a recharge and the amout needed for the same trip does not either. The only way to save money in the short or long run is to make the cost of the car the same. Thats not possible as the tech., is much more expensive and the cost to maintain is also. Yes the tech., is there but there are cheaper and better ways. I'll admit that the electric car will likly be widly used but only because the powers that be will continue to to keep us in a perpetual loop of servitude alot easier.
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look,you guys,transport is never going to be cheaper than it is now,that's not what bussiness is about,when it turns out electric cars will be cheaper to run then others,the price of electricity will go up or the cars will be taxed higher
- the partially blind semi bald eagle
Bastard Elect
(01-15-2010, 11:01 PM)srijantje Wrote: look,you guys,transport is never going to be cheaper than it is now,that's not what bussiness is about,when it turns out electric cars will be cheaper to run then others,the price of electricity will go up or the cars will be taxed higher
And the better, faster cars will be overpriced as well. Humans are very greedy 
Which technology is simpler, electricity or hydrogen cars?
And of the 2, which requires the most preliminary prep time to be used and maintained, which is the most simple?
VF has it right, an electric car can pull over anywhere and be plugged in into a standard wall socket. Convenience will ALWAYS win out in USA.
Hydrogen requires that all gas stations be retrofitted for hydrogen where as for electricity they need only install a extra fuse box and some wall sockets (and maybe a coffee shop..)
As for maintenance electric cars are easier then the more complex power train of a hydrogen driven car. Hydrogen being more complex, when you include the making of the hydrogen fuel, requires far more infrastructure preparation whereas electricity is already there. (comparatively speaking)
Essentially the electric car would just be another large electric appliance on wheels and as such general electric and other company's that normally make just large house hold appliances will join the competition to fabricate the cars and the prices and variety will go down.
Greed is essentially holding progress back at the moment, the greedy oil company's and car manufacturers... But they will eventually loose there death grip on the market.
So with ALL that considered electricity would be the cheaper route to go.
You guys have to look at the most ultimate bottom line, at least with regards of the USA and there is your answer.
I get way to cerebral when there is green around.
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the bad thing about electric at the moment would be where to put all the used up batteries and we still burn fossil fuels to charge them up.
hydrogen as such leaves a footprint which is so much smaller.
maybe in 100 or 200 yrs from now battery cars and any other will be laughed at and we'll all drive on mag lev roads. using the smallest amount of energy to propel us.
(01-16-2010, 06:48 PM)billy Wrote: the bad thing about electric at the moment would be where to put all the used up batteries and we still burn fossil fuels to charge them up.
That's one of the reasons we need to invest in hydraulic,eolic and other types of renewable energies.
Otherwise there is no point in making an electric car. 
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(01-16-2010, 09:41 PM)SidewaysDan Wrote: (01-16-2010, 06:48 PM)billy Wrote: the bad thing about electric at the moment would be where to put all the used up batteries and we still burn fossil fuels to charge them up.
That's one of the reasons we need to invest in hydraulic,eolic and other types of renewable energies.
Otherwise there is no point in making an electric car.
for me it's better to start now making the cars. and in time the power sources used to charge them will be non fossil fueled. it will come from alternative energy. if we wait till we get that energy and just use other fuels we'll have to wait a good while. that electricty is still made if we use it to charge cars or not. as of now electricity can only be stored in a battery. what we don't use from power stations dissipates.
(01-16-2010, 06:48 PM)billy Wrote: the bad thing about electric at the moment would be where to put all the used up batteries and we still burn fossil fuels to charge them up.
hydrogen as such leaves a footprint which is so much smaller.
maybe in 100 or 200 yrs from now battery cars and any other will be laughed at and we'll all drive on mag lev roads. using the smallest amount of energy to propel us.
Good point; when the batteries do need replacing they will most likely be done by a certified mechanic who should have to give them back to the company for recycle.
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(01-17-2010, 10:02 AM)Scrufuss Wrote: (01-16-2010, 06:48 PM)billy Wrote: the bad thing about electric at the moment would be where to put all the used up batteries and we still burn fossil fuels to charge them up.
hydrogen as such leaves a footprint which is so much smaller.
maybe in 100 or 200 yrs from now battery cars and any other will be laughed at and we'll all drive on mag lev roads. using the smallest amount of energy to propel us.
Good point; when the batteries do need replacing they will most likely be done by a certified mechanic who should have to give them back to the company for recycle. if we do get e cars en masse i'm sure they'll come up with safer batteries as well.
I think time is needed. There's no point hoping that we will have e-cars en masse by the end of the week. At the end of the decade seems like a much more realistic take. And this is just to develop technologies...
And batteries are complicated. Many use expensive metals (hence recycling can help) and using an acid is generally required (as an electrolyte if im not mistaken). And you need a battery that can make a strong current. Safe is not how I'd describe a battery.
(01-17-2010, 10:29 AM)SidewaysDan Wrote: I think time is needed. There's no point hoping that we will have e-cars en masse by the end of the week. At the end of the decade seems like a much more realistic take. And this is just to develop technologies...
And batteries are complicated. Many use expensive metals (hence recycling can help) and using an acid is generally required (as an electrolyte if im not mistaken). And you need a battery that can make a strong current. Safe is not how I'd describe a battery.
That is another factor you made me think of..
Which car will go BOOM if in a catastrophic accident?
The battery powered car wont as far as I know but it will leak acidic battery fluids.
Hydrogen is flammable.
And to be a smart ass steam powered vehicles tend to explode occasionally.
Hydrogen, will explode and if carried in the same fassion as gas be much more dangerous. However if it is converted from something else that in fact does not burn and carried in that state and converted onboard only as needed for each controlled power stroke then it becomes very safe indeed.
If a petrol car crashes into a wall at 60 mph it doesn't explode as far as i'm aware. Why should a Hydrogen car be different. Without a flame AND oxygen nothing much happens :angel:
Dan if a gas powered car hits a wall at 60 MPH there is a good probability that it will indeed burn. If a line or the tank is ruptured then morso. With todays cars and fuel injection the fuel systems are pressurized. A rupture in a high pressure fuel line creates a gas mist and alot more fumes which are actually what burns or explodes. The trick is to keep the fuel in an enclosed space where it can not turn to that fume or invisable gasious state that makes it flamable.
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