Practising Critique on Dead Guys Who Can't Throw Tantrums Anymore...

[Leanne]

Below is a poem that's both beloved and despised by critics, and has actually been published with variations to the text several times (usually only a word substition or two), proving that even the great poets don't mind changing things when they need to. Using any critical technique you like, try giving old Bill some balanced feedback on his poem.

Some general critiquing tips for use on all poems:

Remember that this is not your writing.
Ask yourself what the author wants to achieve and how best that goal can be met within the existing framework of the piece. Do not attempt to impose your own style on another writer; a good reviewer will in fact impose the writer’s style on him/herself for the duration of the critique.

Consider that the speaker/voice of the writing is not always that of the author, even if it uses an I.
It is a mistake to assume that anything written in the first person is always autobiographical, and to do so can in fact offend. It is possibly best to avoid giving “life advice” in a critique, other than as a direct requirement for interpretation of the piece.

Expect that every piece of writing posted may eventually be ready for publication, and do your best to help it get there.
Even the tiniest word can make a difference – be thorough. This does not mean that you should look only for flaws – rather, ask yourself if what you are suggesting will really enhance the writing. Remove weaknesses, enhance strengths – at all times try to be balanced in your criticism and explain yourself when it is needed.

Examine all aspects: technical merit, possible meanings, aesthetics and effectiveness.
A piece that is technically brilliant may fall short in aesthetics or originality; if it’s aesthetically pleasing it may not really make an impact. Try to work out why. If you are not sure of the technique used, it is often a good idea to find out before you write your review. This not only provides the most help to the author, it also increases your own knowledge.

Never use criticism of writing as a means to criticise the author.
Conducting personal feuds via critiques and/or writing posts does nothing to nurture the written word and is detrimental to poetry itself.

Equally, criticism of writing should not be used to ingratiate oneself with the author.
Flattery is in fact very damaging, creating a false idea of one’s ability. Praise good work, certainly, but never with empty words. Make it clear that you have read the piece and explain why you appreciate it. No comments should be made in an attempt to solicit comments in return. A give-and-take in reviews is preferable but should never be demanded.


You might also find this helpful: Basic Rubric For Judging Poetry

Right -- have at it!


The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats (1919)

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[billy]

will do a crit after shopping.
at last i get to crit one of the greats

[billy]

The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats (1919)

Turning and turning in the widening gyre would 'with' work better than 'in' i like the use of gyre; even though it's archaic, it fits in with the content (the 2nd coming)
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere is the reiteration of loosed need, would another word work better.
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; love how this relates to the christening being irrelevant, or abused.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
great verse which shows the world going to shit, through the use of metaphor. obviously the falconer is god and we are the falcon. it nicely shows how left to our own devices we turn rogue.

Surely some revelation is at hand; we know it's about the 2nd coming from revelations so is the actual word needed, would another leave us a little more thought?
Surely the Second Coming is at hand. the reiteration of surely works for me here. it makes me feel a need of urgency. i like it's use.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi had to google the latin phrase, it works well in showing the fallen as one entity. it also adds a biblical feel to the piece
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand; wast feels a little forced
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, this is my fave line.
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds. can one of the deserts be changed, would it help?

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep this line nicely dates the poem and tells us it's about gods death
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? not sure about the last four lines. i get the impression that 2nd coming may not be a good one. is the beast Armageddon, the apocalypse maybe

apart from a couple of nits the poem is very publishable.
the use of metaphor is excellently done. i see that waste is wasteland and that it was shortened to fit the meter, was just wondering if a small edit on that line would help. my personal preference when using grammar is to cap when needed. (but that's just me)
all in all a great write. all my suggestion are jmo to use or not as you see fit.
thanks for the read.

[Leanne]

Dear live Billy,

Thank you for a most excellent critique. Do you know, I never even noticed the second use of "loose"? I think I'll change L5 to "freed". I think I'll leave "in the gyre" though, I really want the idea of being inside the vortex itself.

I will think on "revelation". Sometimes people need a bit of a nudge, you know? They're not all as switched on as yourself. I agree with you about "waste" though. I will have to think of an alternative, and I think I'll need to get rid of "desert" in that line altogether or I'll lose the meter.

Thanks again.

Regards,
Dead Billy.

[Todd]

Hi WB,

I do like the poem and hopefully can give you some comments / suggestions to see if your intent hit where you wanted it to.

You title your piece The Second Coming which when added to your Bethlehem reference in the final line is clearly meant to allude to Christ (though I think ultimately you have a different sort of second coming in mind). You also litter the poem with apocalyptic references (things that while not mentioned in Matthew 24 directly or Revelation still feel at home descriptively.

The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats (1919)

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

These first three lines are interesting. The spinning references make me think of time as a circular concept rather than a linear one (Far East view vs Greek). You seem to be saying that that which has happened before will happen again--which fits with your title. I love that the gyre (great word) is widening. The cataclysm is drawing closer. I also like how you back up the cyclonic first line with the circular image of a falcon circling a falconer (I know circling isn't explicitly mentioned but I think it's implied). L2 gives the sense that what is happening has gotten out of control and isn't governed by any sort of intelligence. L3 everything is collapsing in on itself.

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Again you build, the end result is anarchy and then we have the apocalypic (wars and rumors of wars) lead in with blood-dimmed tide. I like the addition of dimmed it makes me think that it's happening already but not fully recognized for what it is. You make some really nice choices here in that "the ceremony" of innocence is drowned. Death has made us jaded and while innocence exists still the act of holding it sacred is leaving us. This has a fatalistic sense that what is coming has come and is continuing to overwhelm. What's interesting also is while the falcon line showed that there may be no overarcing intelligence governing this the repetition of loosed takes us in the other direction. You loose a pack of wild dogs--someone does it. This makes us think that while we (mortals) cannot guide the events something else is doing it--and it isn't benign. Your last two lines here are an interesting characterization apathy and zeal.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

Now we see the reflection. Surely these are the end times. The doomsayers and prophets are rising up through the speaker

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi

The Latin may be a little awkward to some readers but it's okay I guess. It does make me step out of the read a bit to want to look it up and make sure my interpretation isn't correct. Since you're using biblical imagery you could say Spirit of this World though I'll grant it's use as you seem to also be hitting on a collective unconsciousness world mind (jungian). I don't get the sense that you are using world in the 1 John way as the system of thought that opposes god. So, maybe this is okay.

Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;

I realize you are playing to the sonics here and that's an acceptable choice. I do want to point out though that a break on desert may make the line more interesting. I realize that can cause other problems just a thought to consider. I do like that phrase either way.
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

This feels like Ezekiel or Revelation again. The description of the gaze is one of my favorite lines in the poem. Here is the beast and it's rousing. It is a lion to rule but it has intelligence like a man. While I like wind shadows a lot I'm not fond of the repetition of desert here.

The darkness drops again but now I know

I like your first four words here but the last bit feels like a weaker transition than you seem capable of.

That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

What great lines these are. They seem to point to the beast with the slow moving thighs (maybe a statue coming to life: stony sleep) and Christ in the tomb. We are now back to the turning the cycle is repeating. The birth of Christ changed much now a new birth a new rocking cradle is coming and it brings nightmares--very, very cool.

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Definitely not a meek child this time. And in deviating with the Christian second coming this is another birth not a return from the clouds. Though, I do sense a type of judgment coming in any event. I do think you play on the biblical phrase well here where Christ said "My hour has not yet come." It's pointing toward the significance of an event preordained in this cycle. I normally don't like ending on a question but Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born is really brilliant.

Again enjoyed the poem, I hope there's something you can use in all that.

Best,

Todd

[Leanne]

Dear Todd,

Wonderful critique, old boy. You must come round for tea and we'll chat about how sad it is that nobody learns Latin in school anymore, or maybe plot something nasty to do to T. S. Eliot.

Your servant,
WB.

[Todd]

I'd like to measure out his life in coffee spoons--don't get me started on Wasteland.

[billy]

Hi WB,

I do like the poem and hopefully can give you some comments / suggestions to see if your intent hit where you wanted it to.

You title your piece The Second Coming which when added to your Bethlehem reference in the final line is clearly meant to allude to Christ (though I think ultimately you have a different sort of second coming in mind). You also litter the poem with apocalyptic references (things that while not mentioned in Matthew 24 directly or Revelation still feel at home descriptively.

The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats (1919)

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

These first three lines are interesting. The spinning references make me think of time as a circular concept rather than a linear one (Far East view vs Greek). You seem to be saying that that which has happened before will happen again--which fits with your title. I love that the gyre (great word) is widening. The cataclysm is drawing closer. I also like how you back up the cyclonic first line with the circular image of a falcon circling a falconer (I know circling isn't explicitly mentioned but I think it's implied). L2 gives the sense that what is happening has gotten out of control and isn't governed by any sort of intelligence. L3 everything is collapsing in on itself.

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Again you build, the end result is anarchy and then we have the apocalypic (wars and rumors of wars) lead in with blood-dimmed tide. I like the addition of dimmed it makes me think that it's happening already but not fully recognized for what it is. You make some really nice choices here in that "the ceremony" of innocence is drowned. Death has made us jaded and while innocence exists still the act of holding it sacred is leaving us. This has a fatalistic sense that what is coming has come and is continuing to overwhelm. What's interesting also is while the falcon line showed that there may be no overarcing intelligence governing this the repetition of loosed takes us in the other direction. You loose a pack of wild dogs--someone does it. This makes us think that while we (mortals) cannot guide the events something else is doing it--and it isn't benign. Your last two lines here are an interesting characterization apathy and zeal.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

Now we see the reflection. Surely these are the end times. The doomsayers and prophets are rising up through the speaker

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi

The Latin may be a little awkward to some readers but it's okay I guess. It does make me step out of the read a bit to want to look it up and make sure my interpretation isn't correct. Since you're using biblical imagery you could say Spirit of this World though I'll grant it's use as you seem to also be hitting on a collective unconsciousness world mind (jungian). I don't get the sense that you are using world in the 1 John way as the system of thought that opposes god. So, maybe this is okay.

Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;

I realize you are playing to the sonics here and that's an acceptable choice. I do want to point out though that a break on desert may make the line more interesting. I realize that can cause other problems just a thought to consider. I do like that phrase either way.
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

This feels like Ezekiel or Revelation again. The description of the gaze is one of my favorite lines in the poem. Here is the beast and it's rousing. It is a lion to rule but it has intelligence like a man. While I like wind shadows a lot I'm not fond of the repetition of desert here.

The darkness drops again but now I know

I like your first four words here but the last bit feels like a weaker transition than you seem capable of.

That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

What great lines these are. They seem to point to the beast with the slow moving thighs (maybe a statue coming to life: stony sleep) and Christ in the tomb. We are now back to the turning the cycle is repeating. The birth of Christ changed much now a new birth a new rocking cradle is coming and it brings nightmares--very, very cool.

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Definitely not a meek child this time. And in deviating with the Christian second coming this is another birth not a return from the clouds. Though, I do sense a type of judgment coming in any event. I do think you play on the biblical phrase well here where Christ said "My hour has not yet come." It's pointing toward the significance of an event preordained in this cycle. I normally don't like ending on a question but Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born is really brilliant.

Again enjoyed the poem, I hope there's something you can use in all that.

Best,

Todd

hi todd, i think you mistook me for someone who actually gives a fuck what you think. and it's mr yeats to you


just messing with ya homey

actually i enjoyed your critique of my poem very much. you're pretty much spot on with your take on the piece, the gyre; while linear as you say was also up and down, (three dimensional) i used it and the falcon to express the rise and fall of man in gods shadow.

i understand what you mean about the desert and will see if i can do something along your suggested line in an edit.

glad you got the gist of what i was expressing. thanks for the great feedback
billy