Janitorial Worker

[Erthona]

Janitorial Worker

edit 2.00 mel/ with new title

Genesis

musty old building
broken gray-haired woman mops
bleachwater floods floor

 
edit 1.01 (Azure)

musty old building
a gray-haired woman with mop
bleach covers the floor

Original

forgotten building
old gray-haired woman with mop
bleach covers the floor
 
–Erthona
 
©2014

[azure]

Janitorial Worker
 
forgotten building
old gray-haired woman with mop
bleach covers the floor
 
–Erthona
 
©2014

Drear, industrial imagery. I liked how 'gray-haired', 'mop', and 'bleach' worked together to create a scene overlooked. The spotlight shines on a mundane goddess that in the daily hustle is practically invisible. I'm not too keen on the word 'old' in L2. I think it isn't necessary, although its importance is understandable. Nice work.

[Erthona]

Thanks Azure,

I had originally had old in both line, which of course in line two would have been redundant. I meant to take old out of line two and leave it in line 1. I seem to have done the opposite. I had a better second line than I do now, but until I remember it, this will have to do.

Thanks for pointing that out.

dale

[azure]

Thanks Azure,

I had originally had old in both line, which of course in line two would have been redundant. I meant to take old out of line two and leave it in line 1. I seem to have done the opposite. I had a better second line than I do now, but until I remember it, this will have to do.

Thanks for pointing that out.

dale

No problem. Thank you for your honest feedback on my poems! It means a lot, and your words have taught me much already. Now onto the edit. I think that the use of the word 'old' that has been moved to L1 is pretty decent now. 'Musty' rendered the piece with a certain stench that I liked, not a bad use of the senses to heighten the imagery. The edit read smoother than the OP.

[paranoid marvin]

Thought provoking ; I like.

Does 'crone' work better than 'woman'?

[Erthona]

paranoid marvin,

"Crone" is a good descriptive word, but it puts the focus on the woman and not on the situation, which is not what I intended. Although this is not a nature scene, I do think the transition from musty to clean (bleach) acts fairly well as the " kigo", and "mop" does serviceable well as the cutting word as in English we have no "saijiki" from which to draw. I suppose some may see this being closer to a senryū than haiku. Although this may be perceived as somewhat ironic, I think it is really not satiric at all, and it is less about human idiocies, and simply more about the passage of time, but I suppose it could be read either way.

Thanks for giving it a read. I always appreciate feedback whether I can use it or not, as it forces me to re-evaluate my rationale behind the poem.

Thanks,


Dale    

[milo]

paranoid marvin,

"Crone" is a good descriptive word, but it puts the focus on the woman and not on the situation, which is not what I intended. Although this is not a nature scene, I do think the transition from musty to clean (bleach) acts fairly well as the " kigo", and "mop" does serviceable well as the cutting word as in English we have no "saijiki" from which to draw. I suppose some may see this being closer to a senryū than haiku. Although this may be perceived as somewhat ironic, I think it is really not satiric at all, and it is less about human idiocies, and simply more about the passage of time, but I suppose it could be read either way.

Thanks for giving it a read. I always appreciate feedback whether I can use it or not, as it forces me to re-evaluate my rationale behind the poem.

Thanks,


Dale    

The adjectives in their current positions read "tired"

It would be more interesting to see a musty woman with a grey haired mop.

[ellajam]

Hi, dale, I think the last line could do more, "covers the floor" doesn't appeal to me, floods or tidal waves or perfume to bring up the bleach scent, something more.

[Erthona]

Milo wrote: "The adjectives in their current positions read "tired"

It would be more interesting to see a musty woman with a grey haired mop."

Really? I didn't know adjectives could read at all.

Yes it would be interesting to see a musty woman, although I don't know how one would do that. 

I will take your sincere comments under advisement.

[milo]

Milo wrote: "The adjectives in their current positions read "tired"

It would be more interesting to see a musty woman with a grey haired mop."

Really? I didn't know adjectives could read at all.

Yes it would be interesting to see a musty woman, although I don't know how one would do that. 

Unless she is a ghost or invisible I don't know why you would have difficulty seeing her. Perhaps the narrator is Homer?

[Erthona]

ellajam wrote: "Hi, dale, I think the last line could do more, "covers the floor" doesn't appeal to me, floods or tidal waves or perfume to bring up the bleach scent, something more."

Yes, I understand what you are saying and I thought about that, but I do not want bleach to be more of the focus than it is. I was thinking more in terms of the liquid shinning. Flood would be the closest. However, the phrase "covers the floor" I hoped would bring to mind the allusion of the "waters covered the earth" at possibly a subconscious level...maybe not   I think the idea of the smell of bleach is so powerfully associated it really does not need to be punctuated. I meant the focus to be on the cyclic nature of things, humans as well as buildings, but other wise, yes, it would be good to enhance the smell aspect of the bleach, although I think I would still use something like "sheet" across the floor.

Thanks for your comments, always thoughtful and beneficial,

dale   

[Erthona]

Milo wrote: "The adjectives in their current positions read "tired"

It would be more interesting to see a musty woman with a grey haired mop."

Really? I didn't know adjectives could read at all.

Yes it would be interesting to see a musty woman, although I don't know how one would do that. 

Unless she is a ghost or invisible I don't know why you would have difficulty seeing her. Perhaps the narrator is Homer?

I think maybe it would be difficult seeing her because "musty" is something one can smell, not something one can see.

I assume then you take exception to "old" "musty" and "gray" in their current locale and would move them to other residences. Please enlighten me as to where their new zip code should be, por favor. If you continue to press the idea of gray-haired mop I will assume you have lost you mind more than usual or have gotten hold of some really good drugs. Only if I were attempting to write a poem based on something akin to Dali symbolism would I ever consider such a phrase as "gray-haired mop". Besides I would bypass that and use "Gray raggedy Ann doll head mop" which cast it baleful eyes upon you as you try to mop the floor, mud oozing up as you pass. Something of a Steven King/Sisyphean motif I think.

I did want the "poem" as a whole to have a bit of a tiredness about it, as it slowly mops its way towards death, but I sense you are using tired in a different way. I do not think it would improve the poem to start it with:

gray-haired building
a musty old mop with woman...

Or if we are to break the fake " on" count completely

old building 
musty woman with gray-haired mop
bleach covers the floor

I think you can write that one if you wish, you are welcome to it

dale

[milo]

Really? I didn't know adjectives could read at all.
Yes it would be interesting to see a musty woman, although I don't know how one would do that. 

Unless she is a ghost or invisible I don't know why you would have difficulty seeing her. Perhaps the narrator is Homer?

I think maybe it would be difficult seeing her because "musty" is something one can smell, not something one can see.

does it render people invisible?  Is this a poem of synesthaesia?

"grey-haired mop" is perhaps the most interesting thing I have come across in the poem, or rather possible combination. How you use it (or not) is up to you, it is your poem. For the most part, I think you are leaning too much on your adjectives which is probably why someone suggested switching to "crone" - not because it would be good, per se, bu because the poem leans ineffectively on its crop of adjectives.

[Erthona]

OK, that I can respond to. You may likely be right. my intent was to present the last stage in a cycle, the stage before death in both the building and the person. I did not want vibrancy or lively wording in the poem, nor did I want it to seem energetic, which most have urged to do. Evidently I did not succeed in transmitting that. The build and the woman are both tired and both are nearing the end of their usefulness. The bleach is somewhat symbolic of the fading of things as we get closer to death. The woman is not a crone (or anything else), she is just a tired old woman, still working at a job she hates, but she needs the money to survive. This is about that point in life where the tiredness sets in, where life becomes a balance between the energy drain needed to keep living and the desire to do so. As time continues we eventually reach the point where the energy drain is more than we wish to pay to stay alive, and as my mother would say, we "give up the ghost." These were the things in my head when I wrote this. Certainly I could spiff up the adjectives and make it maybe more entertaining, but I was looking for the mundane, not to entertain. To me, the idea of a gray-haired mop sounds comedic, there was nothing comedic in my intention. No, I will just have to consider this experiment a failure, as you and ella, and paranoid marvin seem to have missed the point of it, the point was less than clear. In this give myself a B for conceptualization, but an F for execution.

Best,

Dale

Dale

[just mercedes]

Hi Dale - your idea is strong but it just didn't follow through. Maybe it's because the three lines give three images, but there's no Aha! moment where they tilt, or change, at least, not for me. I played with

old woman
slowly mopping floor -
ceiling crumbles

but that felt kind of slapstick, where you want to tell a sad story about life. Or the end of it, anyway. Don't give up - keep going!

[paranoid marvin]

OK, that I can respond to. You may likely be right. my intent was to present the last stage in a cycle, the stage before death in both the building and the person. I did not want vibrancy or lively wording in the poem, nor did I want it to seem energetic, which most have urged to do. Evidently I did not succeed in transmitting that. The build and the woman are both tired and both are nearing the end of their usefulness. The bleach is somewhat symbolic of the fading of things as we get closer to death. The woman is not a crone (or anything else), she is just a tired old woman, still working at a job she hates, but she needs the money to survive. This is about that point in life where the tiredness sets in, where life becomes a balance between the energy drain needed to keep living and the desire to do so. As time continues we eventually reach the point where the energy drain is more than we wish to pay to stay alive, and as my mother would say, we "give up the ghost." These were the things in my head when I wrote this. Certainly I could spiff up the adjectives and make it maybe more entertaining, but I was looking for the mundane, not to entertain. To me, the idea of a gray-haired mop sounds comedic, there was nothing comedic in my intention. No, I will just have to consider this experiment a failure, as you and ella, and paranoid marvin seem to have missed the point of it, the point was less than clear. In this  give myself a B for conceptualization, but an F for execution.

Best,

Dale

Dale

If people interpret your work in different ways helps to make it a success; that some people don't interpret the same way you don't doesn't make it a failure.

The reason I suggested crone was that my understanding was that the poem wasn't about her, so what I should have said was ditch 'grey-haired woman', and just use crone. This was because once syllable or beat spent on her disregards her, whilst 4 syllables or beats (in a poem of only 16) makes her central. But that's my opinion; it doesn't necessarily make it better or worse , simply shifts the focus (in my opinion).

As I mentioned I like it. Old house , old woman, and a artificial substance being used to effectively burn away and renew. There's a great sense of smell in the poem, which is unusual as most tend to around audio or visual senses. A musty old house, a musty old woman contrasted with the sharp, acrid, over-powering smell of bleach.

[Erthona]

PM wrote: "If people interpret your work in different ways helps to make it a success; that some people don't interpret the same way you don't doesn't make it a failure."

To me this is one of those ideas that people put out there without really thinking about it. Would you call and inkblot, art? Certainly there is always going to be various interpretation of anything, but the poet should do his/her best when writing to eliminate unintended ambiguity and vagueness. Many interpretations is not something the writer should aim for. 


Be that as it may and meaning aside, most responded to this poem by wanting to make it into something it was not, in that they seemed to want to punch it up. I personally find the idea of Haiku in English a totally absurd notion (that is not just some idiosyncrasy of mine, but the opinion of one of the better modern Japanese writers of Haiku through his brother-in law who I briefly taught with), however if one is going to write an English haiku, and call it a haiku, it should follow the accepted form (no matter how ludicrous it is ). I personally found the poem in general pleasing, although there is some work that needs doing on L2, and it would have been nice to have some suggestion related to that. Sad really, it's kind of like a girl who is pretty, but does not conform to what a group of people think is pretty, and so they call her ugly, telling her she needs to put on makeup, curl her hair, put on a fancy dress and then she will be pretty. I thought the thoughts of JM were interesting, that the lines were disconnected from each other. This surprised me. I would think in haiku it would be a given that the lines have something to do with each other, One of the classic Japanese senryu's goes something like,

   "The robber,
   when I catch,
   my own son"

There is nothing that directly connects the lines to each other, but we, or I assume one does, makes the connection through the progression of time. So we make the connection whether it is directly noted or not.
So I would think it is a given, whether senryu or haiku that if an event is spoken of , rather than a thought, it should automatically track linearly through time, but maybe not, or maybe that is limited to senryu.   

Thanks for your comments, I value the time you are willing to put in on this,

Thanks again,

Dale

[Erthona]

JM,

I've contemplated what you said. I went back and read it several more times after I responded above. I would like to talk about this comment:

"your idea is strong but it just didn't follow through"

This I found interesting as I never thought of anything like following through. This is cyclic. There really is no follow through, that is sort of the point. This woman is stuck in this life and in this job she probably hates (although maybe she loves it, we don't know), regardless, her life is such that she is locked in to her job, just as surely as the building she is moping is locked into it's path towards destruction. Not creating an ending is not only intentional, but appropriate. Most people in the world are trapped in similar situation for years, and death is the only resolution. I feel no more need to bring this to some kind of conclusion than to say something about the apple being on the ground, if I open with I dropped an apple from a tree. The idea is to create tension. This is the myth of Sisyphus acted out on the stage of life. There is no resolution to the myth and there is no resolution here, although we know this has to end at some point. Still there is that feeling if we are caught within this myth and it seems to us as if it will go on forever, a very apt description for depression it seems to me. I do not know if that is what you mean by "follow through." Perhaps if that is not what you mean, you could give me a clearer idea and I could respond in a better way.

I do value your input, I find it stimulating and insightful,

Thanks,

Dale

[bena]

ok so you've had so many comments so far and I'm not going to rehash the obvious. First things first, I love this--you know I love the whole cyclic nature of everything on this planet and there is alot of word play going on. Needs a better title, I think you know that. You also know my state of mind the last few days, so a great title to me would be Fresh Rot or something.

I'm going to do a "rewrite" if you will---god I hate those...but just to show how I would do it.


musty old building
gray-haired woman mops
bleach pools on floor

meh. said I wouldn't do it tonight, but I done did.

lover ya
melicious

[Erthona]

Thanks Thumper.

I like part of that, but you blew the syllable count all to shit, and you changed my kireji (mop) from a noun to a verb although I guess it could still provide the same function (fulcrum). I think for last line I might do this:

"bleach water floods floor"

At back you,

dale

I redid the poem, just for you mel