God Is Evil

[srijantje]

i agree with Bill,next step would be ,who deserves to be saved and who doesn't,gods chosen people etc.

[kath3]

we believe or we don't kath.
we make explanations or we don't.
god exists or he doesn't.
none of us really know. you put down that your husband getting well was down to god.

True enough, though we're never far from changes until we die ... and I by no means wish nor intend to convince or change anybody's mind, I was just sharing my experience ... that for myself I cannot accept that intervention through prayer is a man made myth. Because of my families experience I just can't and won't accept that.

whether i believe in god or not is irrelevant to what you feel you experienced. and what you experienced is irrelevant as to the evilness of god. i'm sure ted bundy did a few good things in his life,
i'm sure hitler also did. if god does exist, then the saving of one life does not redeem him for the pain and suffering he's allowed to be caused in his name. to stand by and doing nothing while someone is being raped or murdered is bad, but to stand by while nation destroys nation is exponentially worse. i say he's still evil no matter how many he may have saved.

If it is true that God stands idlely by doing nothing to stop rapes, murders, wars upon wars then where does our free will come into play? Where is our accountability for our own actions?
What would be the point of free will if every wrongful move man makes it is to be undone by God's hand ... we would be nothing more than mindless puppets.

I do not believe God to be a he or she that sits upon a throne watching over mankind from the heavens and allowing us to wallow in our destructive ways. Nor do I believe that he picks and chooses who he will spare or grant prayer priviledges to.
Jesus was said to have performed many miracles, healing the sick, blind and lame. I read a bible passage many years ago about a man who just by touching the hem of Jesus' garment was healed ... Jesus turned to the man and said, "it is by your faith that you are healed". I pondered that for many years and came to the self conclusion that Jesus was simply saying that our faith is our healer .... that energy force that belongs to God is in us and at our disposal. Jesus was simply a man ... a very intense man that by his shear presence people flocked to him. I'm assuming some of the so called healings where ingnited from hysteria, but I also believe that some of the healings were legitimate only that they came from within the individuals. Jesus turning around and saying to the man, "it is your faith that heals you" allowed for him to return the credit back to where the true source of the healing was from ... the God energy that is in all of us and as I've shared before I believe returns to God upon our death.
I see God as being neither good nor evil, "He" just is or "It just is.
I do believe that energy guided my husband and I. Some refer to it as the law of attraction, but what ever it was or is I refer to as God/energy.
I haven't the answers as most of us don't but something happened for us, something which I am and will always be thankful for, and for me I give that recognition to God.
All the horrible things that you spoke of are human caused yet we blame God for their occurance. What are most of us doing to stop the ugliness? ... not much.

[srijantje]

what about babys who get their heads kicked in?they're pretty innocent,ok the person who does the kicking has free will,but a god who lets it happen is evil

[kath3]

what about babys who get their heads kicked in?they're pretty innocent,ok the person who does the kicking has free will,but a god who lets it happen is evil

I don't see it as God letting evil or good things happen. Everything man needed was provided for during the big bang. We have corrupted and abused most of what was provided. We're not stupid ... we are intelligent, but we choose to ignore right because of what ever personal agendas and so we must pay a price.
How very easy it is to say God is evil ... he lets or allows evil ... No! We allow evil. Not until we take a collective stand will evil ever stop.

[billy]

True enough, though we're never far from changes until we die ... and I by no means wish nor intend to convince or change anybody's mind, I was just sharing my experience ... that for myself I cannot accept that intervention through prayer is a man made myth. Because of my families experience I just can't and won't accept that.

and rightly so, i know i'd def not expect or ask for that to happen.

If it is true that God stands idlely by doing nothing to stop rapes, murders, wars upon wars then where does our free will come into play? Where is our accountability for our own actions?
What would be the point of free will if every wrongful move man makes it is to be undone by God's hand ... we would be nothing more than mindless puppets.

do you mean the free will jews had in the holocaust? the free will the starving have in darfur. the think with free will is this, when someone has free and uses it violently it usually means a victim has no chance to use their free will.

another example. we have free will as children, (they too die young from making the wrong choices) would you sit by and watch a child cross a busy road knowing that if it did it would die? would you sit by and watch a child drink a bottle of bleach.

does god have free will. because if he does; and the bible has shown that he does. Then surely he's also accountable for his actions or lack of actions. isn't our humanity based on him/his?

the last point, god knows everything right? what would be the point of giving us free will in the knowledge that with it we will wipe ourselves out.

why didn't he give us a limited free will. the same as a forum has. a moderated will if you will. we can only use bombs for peaceful purpose, we can't knowingly kill someone, we can't rape or molest kids. he set some rules out for us didn't he, but he also stopped us from certain things, a child can't enter heaven if it hasn't been baptised. (purgatory for you you boy) where's the choice there>

[kath3]

You speak of a limited free will ... that's not free will.

we cannot have total free will if we are not omnipotent, a god if it exists in the understanding of the bible, is the only entity to have total free will.
our will is already limited. what of my free will if i were a burning jew?
free will is torn form us and we often have no recourse to stop it.

as i say, in crimes of violence such as rape kiddy molesting and murder, etc our free will is curtailed.
a god could stop such atrocity, do children have free will? you say they're not old enough to understand god, what free will do they have. if none, at what age does it come to us.

[addy]

The bible tells us that God actually regretted creating man.

Yeah, I haven't heard that either. But I suppose it's not surprising

As for the child baptism thing, it comes from the belief that all humans are born "dirty" because of the original sin passed on to us by adam and eve. Without baptism, a child will die "dirty" and have to go to purgatory, or so they say. It kinda sucks

[kath3]

The bible tells us that God actually regretted creating man.

Yeah, I haven't heard that either. But I suppose it's not surprising

Genisis 6:5-6 reads ... (5) The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. (6) The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, his heart was filled with pain.

As for the child baptism thing, it comes from the belief that all humans are born "dirty" because of the original sin passed on to us by adam and eve. Without baptism, a child will die "dirty" and have to go to purgatory, or so they say. It kinda sucks

(quote) The Bible states that only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Christ. (Acts 2:38)
Infant baptism is not a biblical practice. An infant cannot place his/her faith in Christ, cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ and does not understand what water baptism symbolizes.
Baptism does not ensure salvation. If a person has not first trusted in Christ for salvation, baptism is meaningless and useless.
There are however some Christian parents who will have their infant dedicated to Christ which it totally different than baptizing and the child once grown will have to make the personal decision to believe in Christ in order to be saved.
I struggle with the whole salvation thing myself.

[billy]

kath, let me apologise for removing a post

i inadvertently pressed edit instead of reply. it won't happen again

You speak of a limited free will ... that's not free will.

we cannot have total free will if we are not omnipotent, a god if it exists in the understanding of the bible, is the only entity to have total free will.
our will is already limited. what of my free will if i were a burning jew?
free will is torn form us and we often have no recourse to stop it.

as i say, in crimes of violence such as rape kiddy molesting and murder, etc our free will is curtailed.
a god could stop such atrocity, do children have free will? you say they're not old enough to understand god, what free will do they have. if none, at what age does it come to us.

[srijantje]

the whole conversation hasn't changed my mind that there isn't a god in the first place,actually it strengthened that notion

[kath3]

kath, let me apologise for removing a post

i inadvertently pressed edit instead of reply. it won't happen again

even if it does it's no biggy ... shit happens

we cannot have total free will if we are not omnipotent, a god if it exists in the understanding of the bible, is the only entity to have total free will.
our will is already limited. what of my free will if i were a burning jew?
free will is torn form us and we often have no recourse to stop it.

as i say, in crimes of violence such as rape kiddy molesting and murder, etc our free will is curtailed.
a god could stop such atrocity, do children have free will? you say they're not old enough to understand god, what free will do they have. if none, at what age does it come to us.

Gosh I wish I had all the answers then I wouldn't be stumbling around in wonderment.
All I know is that we have the choice to make this planet (our home) a good place for all, a will that we can muster up on our own whether there exists a God or not. We all know right from wrong in reguards to taking anothers life, raping, torturing, stealing, lieing. The means of distinguishing between right and wrong, or good and evil is in us all. Is it instinctive? or was it planted in us by a Higher Being? Does it even matter where it came from? To me the important thing is that it is there in each of us along with the free will to act on it or not.

---

the whole conversation hasn't changed my mind that there isn't a god in the first place,actually it strengthened that notion

Then that's a good thing for you ... your mind can remain at peace with your decision and choice to not believe.
For myself I find comfort in believing that there is a Higher Being. I don't want to believe that this life is for nothing more than to become maggot food when my days are up. But who knows maybe that is my purpose in life.
I just feel that besides being physical beings we are spiritual beings. Some of us have that sense for a large part of our lives, while others only come to recognize it during difficult times, and still others never know it. For me I've always felt it ... I enjoy it ... I embrace it.

[billy]

All I know is that we have the choice to make this planet (our home) a good place for all, a will that we can muster up on our own whether there exists a God or not. We all know right from wrong in reguards to taking anothers life, raping, torturing, stealing, lieing. The means of distinguishing between right and wrong, or good and evil is in us all. Is it instinctive? or was it planted in us by a Higher Being? Does it even matter where it came from? To me the important thing is that it is there in each of us along with the free will to act on it or not.

i think on this one we'll have to agree to disagree

all i know is most of us have no choice because of the choice of someone else.

if i don't use a gas guzzling car i can't feed my family, if i don't toe the line at work i won't have a job and can't feed my family.
if i tell my boss he's wrong, i won't have a job and can't feed my family.

i suppose you could say, "but you still have a choice" but
in somalia, they fight or have your hands cut off with a machete, they say fight or have your children's hands cut off with a machete. of course you can use your free will and choose to have you hands or those of your children cut off but what a price to pay, if this is the work of a god i can only say i don't like him and i think he's evil. (god being jesus)

my take on god is that a higher being doesn't exist in this context. i believe their is a higher state of being which is the order of the universe.
ie the plan or scheme of things. a plan that has to be in order for everything to work, this god has no emotions, cannot create things on a whim but has to follow the rules. it has no knowledge of us or anything else. it's a passive framework that we and everything else adheres too.
some of us are bad and some of us are not so bad, it doesn't care. it's unforgiving, unloving and impartial. it does what it does because it has too.

i don't discount the power we or thought may have to heal or cure. but my god doesn't care. it can't, it doesn't know how to.

[srijantje]

i agree that we're spiritual beings,but for me that hasn't anything to do with a god or not

[kath3]

my take on god is that a higher being doesn't exist in this context. i believe their is a higher state of being which is the order of the universe.
ie the plan or scheme of things. a plan that has to be in order for everything to work, this god has no emotions, cannot create things on a whim but has to follow the rules. it has no knowledge of us or anything else. it's a passive framework that we and everything else adheres too.
some of us are bad and some of us are not so bad, it doesn't care. it's unforgiving, unloving and impartial. it does what it does because it has too.

That would certainly make the understanding of God's so called ways easier to handle.
I'm hearing ya ... interesting thoughts. I'm not ready to go that route of belief and maybe never will, I would miss His pressence in my days.

[billy]

what's is is that the above is true yet i still ask him to take care of my loved ones. hehe.

and i still think if there were a god he'd be evil.

[radlos]

i agree that we're spiritual beings, but for me that hasn't anything to do with a god or not.

I wouldn't have thought you'd have agreed to that. What does being a 'spiritual being' mean to you?

[srijantje]

i was trying to bring something spiritual into the conversation

[radlos]

i was trying to bring something spiritual into the conversation

Please continue trying -- what do you mean, if anything?

[kath3]

what's is is that the above is true yet i still ask him to take care of my loved ones. hehe.

and i still think if there were a god he'd be evil.

ok ... now you've convused me.
You still ask Him (God) to take care of your loved ones ... and you still think IF there were a god he'd be evil.

Do you ask for care for your loved ones from God out of habit?
Because in your heart you know there may be the possibility of His existence?
Or is it out hopefulness that He exists and would watch over them?
Or the fear of not knowing for sure?

[srijantje]

thanks for getting back on topic Kath,i drifted a bit